Why cant the dead come back to life?

Originally Posted by mac

As amazing and fascinating as NDE accounts are to many people, they are not in themselves evidence of the so-called afterlife.

Sometimes, though, they may be an indicator of it and may then lead on to finding about more about the evidence proper....

You may be right,Mac. I think the argument is between the believers and the scientists who say a NDE is caused by a mal function of the brain at death.
Mal function is probably the wrong word to use,but couldn't thnk of any other.

Deepsea

I actually just watched a show yesterday about NDEs. There was a scientist on talking about how the consciousness can survive outside the body for periods of time because it is generated at a quantum level in the brain. At these levels, energy cannot be destroyed so when the body cannot function to facilitate the consciousness it actually leaves the body until if/when it can return. He specializes in researching the workings of the brain at quantum levels. It was really interesting because the scientific theory basically describes what I would use the term "collective unconscious" to describe and the microtubules that grow from this fundamental space in the brain. These microtubules and their configuration, he speculated, were what causes each person's perception to be different, but the "space" of energy these grow from he believes is what people call the Soul. They also interviewed a woman who had been blind from birth and had a NDE from a car accident and she was able to see herself, other people and the city and birds, etc, until she returned to her body. I will try to find a link to the show online because I can't remember what channel it was on, but I will post it when I do.

Originally Posted by firepixie

I actually just watched a show yesterday about NDEs. There was a scientist on talking about how the consciousness can survive outside the body for periods of time because it is generated at a quantum level in the brain. At these levels, energy cannot be destroyed so when the body cannot function to facilitate the consciousness it actually leaves the body until if/when it can return. He specializes in researching the workings of the brain at quantum levels. It was really interesting because the scientific theory basically describes what I would use the term "collective unconscious" to describe and the microtubules that grow from this fundamental space in the brain. These microtubules and their configuration, he speculated, were what causes each person's perception to be different, but the "space" of energy these grow from he believes is what people call the Soul. They also interviewed a woman who had been blind from birth and had a NDE from a car accident and she was able to see herself, other people and the city and birds, etc, until she returned to her body. I will try to find a link to the show online because I can't remember what channel it was on, but I will post it when I do.

That would be great,Firepixie. I would like to see that.
Thank you.
Deepsea

Originally Posted by SandybytheSea

Lostgirl, if that was true, how would you explain atheists and sceptics who have nde's and return to say they were now believers because they have seen heaven?

How would you explain the work of Michael Newton? (if you don't know him, he's a psychologist and hypnotherapist and you might want to find out more about him) His many clients describe much the same things yet come from all walks of life, all religions, and don't know each other.

How would you explain the nde's of thousands of children, some very young, who describe things they knew nothing about, had not yet formed a belief system about or even had any knowledge of death, afterlife or religion?

How would you explain the death-bed visions of so many people in the last hours or minutes of their lives who suddenly sit up and appear to see something others can't, and describe fields of yellow daisies, or greet departed loved ones - especially when some of them don't even know that particular loved one has recently died.

Which reminds me of a wonderful (and true) story about the 2nd and 3rd presidents of the U.S. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Both worked closely together to draft the declaration of independence. Both were life-long friends. Both died on the same day, which not only happened to be July 4th, 1826 but was also the 50th anniversary of the signing of the declaration. But what was even more fascinating was that unbeknown to Adams, Jefferson had died a few hours before, but Adams' last words as he lay dying (and transcribed by those around his bed at the time) were "Thomas Jefferson survives!!!"

It would seem Jefferson refused to go without his life-long friend and came to get him so they could go together. Aaawwwwww.

Im sorry but i cant see how everyone will go to the same place or see the same things. I dont think there is one big place where everybody goes and you have even admitted this with all you many examples by saying "describe fields of yellow daisies, or greet departed loved ones ". I think the soul will go to where it most wants to go.

In the example of Jefferson and Adams, they were miles and miles apart that day so how would Adams know Jefferson was dead?! The understanding is that Adams believed that Jefferson was still alive and said that statement believeing he could carry on their work.

As for Atheists etc who have had NDE's and have come back and said they have seen something amazing, thats where their soul wants to go in my opinion. I see where you are coming from but i merely putting my opinion across. I think that the soul will go where it wants to go it might be similar to another but i dont think it will ever be exactly the same as no two people are the same. Just because one person believes one thing does not mean that everyone else does.

Lostgirl, we're probably talking about 2 different subjects here - and that might be my fault, perhaps I misunderstood you.

It seemed to me (and I apologise if I was wrong) that you were suggesting that the afterlife was ONLY the result of your belief system, so that if you didn't believe in the afterlife, it didn't exist.

Is there just one BIG place where everyone gathers? Maybe there is. We simply don't know. But whatever and wherever it is, it doesn't need to be a big place - we need to be careful that we don't talk in physical terms when we talk about the afterlife, because space is infinite and once we die, we no longer inhabit a physical body, we are pure energy, and energy requires no physical space. Dimensions can and probably do overlap each other.

As far as our belief systems creating what we find, I tend to think it is more the kind of person we are that determines where we go, and considerable research has been done on this with regression therapists, hypnotherapists, chanellers and psychics, not to mention the work of Edgar Cayce and Leslie Flint. What seems to happen is that those who cause harm and suffering and are not repentant find themselves in a dark place, while those who help others and spread joy find themselves in a lighter, brighter place. Interestingly, it is much the same on earth, sometimes physically and sometimes just mentally, so in effect we create our own heaven right here on earth. As above, so below.

However, once there, it appears that yes, we CAN create our own reality merely by thinking about it. We can think about someone and be there instantly. We can decide we want to be by the sea, or check on our loved ones who are still in the physical dimensions, or create a garden or visit a library and there we are! But thinking and believing are not the same things. Believing that there is no afterlife and that when you die you will simply rot in the ground does not mean that you will not experience an afterlife - many are surprised that their long-held beliefs just didn't measure up once they had their NDE, and this is what changes them on their return because they have to re-evaluate their entire belief system.

I mentioned John Adams and Thomas Jefferson because - as I mentioned in the previous paragraph - many people have deathbed visions of those who have departed, and occasionally it has happened that they haven't even been aware that the one they see has died. Yes, it's possible Adams was referring to Jefferson carrying on his work (highly unlikely, since they were both very old and retired and no longer played any role in politics, but that's beside the point) but I take your point. We will never know what he meant when he said it, but I like to think it was a deathbed vision and his friend came to collect him.

Blessings to you, Lostgirl, because you are a thinker and a seeker, and this planet needs lots more of you.

Blessings to you, Lostgirl, because you are a thinker and a seeker, and this planet needs lots more of you.

In regards to the point about our beliefs determine where we go, this is what i believe. No one can prove that we all go to the same place as there is no way you can ask any of them where we go because they have passed on. Although many of the NDE's may be similar in my eyes we go where we want to go. Like i said one of my patients who had a NDE said it was just black, that she wasnt religious in anyway and it was exactly what she thought would happen. It was scary and she didnt want to die. She wasnt a bad person so i disagree with what you said about repenting etc and sort of reaping what you sow in that sense. To me that is just like the idea of heaven and hell - something im not sure on.

I am not going against any of the research and in all honesty i can because i havent read it, but I disagree with it and that is only due to what i believe. Im not saying it is wrong because for all i know it could be right, there will only be one point in my life where i find out whether it is or not and i hope that isnt for a very long time! I hope you can understand where i am coming from?! I am merely offering my views

I think I've mentioned before that I find personal belief or personal thoughts and ideas to be poor substitutes for evidence.

When someone starts a piece, or includes the words "I believe...." within it I find that very few of them have any real depth of understanding.

I feel thankful that I don't have to rely on any personal belief in life.

Im sorry to say that i do have understanding of my beliefs thank you very much.

I think not having any personal beliefs is kind of miserable.

Like i have said i have met many people who have had NDEs and have not said anything like the things some of the people have said in the "evidence" that has been given so in my eyes it isnt something i would base my descions or beliefs on.

So if you dont mind i would much apprecitate it if you dont tell me that because i use the phrase "i believe" that i have no real depth of understanding about them.

Originally Posted by Lostgirl

Im sorry to say that i do have understanding of my beliefs thank you very much.

I think not having any personal beliefs is kind of miserable.

Like i have said i have met many people who have had NDEs and have not said anything like the things some of the people have said in the "evidence" that has been given so in my eyes it isnt something i would base my descions or beliefs on.

So if you dont mind i would much apprecitate it if you dont tell me that because i use the phrase "i believe" that i have no real depth of understanding about them.

I didn't say that you had no personal understanding of your beliefs - they are your words. I did not say, as you are suggesting, quote: "....that because i use the phrase "i believe" that i have no real depth of understanding about them"

And until you do not rely on personal beliefs you can't know whether it actually is miserable not to have them - it's just your belief, something you think to be the case....

When someone starts a piece, or includes the words "I believe...." within it I find that very few of them have any real depth of understanding.

Those are you words, which to me comes across like you are suggesting that because i used those words i dont have an understanding of them. If that is not what you meant may i suggest you think how you are phrasing things.

I also know that it is my beliefs, and beliefs make us the individual that we are. Yousay you think personal beliefs a poor substitute for evidence these are your beliefs.......We all have beliefs and even when you say beliefs are a poor substiture for evidence you are expressing your beliefs ;)