Where Do We Go at Death if not heaven or hell?

[sky]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

Christians who believe in reincarnation are not christians, so, please don't make a confusion.The Bible talks about these so called christians.

I am glad you don't believe in such things, they are by nature false, the root of this belief comes from hinduism, they have gods after gods and people still can't see the deception.

I don't understand why do you talk about those people when you know what a true christian believes... This brings me to something I found out, nowadays, the word "christian" is so "discolored" that very few people really know what it truly means to be a christian.Of course, is your right to write anything you like, but please, stick with the truth.

' I'm glad you don't believe in such things, they are by nature false. '
I believe in Rebirth

Early Christians did believe in Reincarnation as do many now, you cannot judge who is a Christian. There are over 30000 denominations of Christianity so how do you choose who are real Christians, they might judge you to be a false Christian, who knows

If you do a little research you will see that I am speaking the truth, there are ancient scriptures/prayers/hymns that prove Reincarnation was part of some Bishops/Priests/Saints beliefs and you should respect this even though you don't agree.

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by sky123

' I'm glad you don't believe in such things, they are by nature false. '
I believe in Rebirth

Early Christians did believe in Reincarnation as do many now, you cannot judge who is a Christian. There are over 30000 denominations of Christianity so how do you choose who are real Christians, they might judge you to be a false Christian, who knows

If you do a little research you will see that I am speaking the truth, there are ancient scriptures/prayers/hymns that prove Reincarnation was part of some Bishops/Priests/Saints beliefs and you should respect this even though you don't agree.

I see! Sky123, can you tell me from where this belief comes, is it not from hinduism?

A christian is one who believes the Word of God completely ( and this is not because I say so, of course not ).Nowhere in the Bible we find God or any other man talking about reincarnation. Reincarnation is against the Word of God because it denies everything the Bible stands for, do you agree? ( Not from the perspective of a believer but from a perspective of a rational thinking ).I know that when the Bible was put together there were many who tried to bring their gnostic beliefs into the Bible but they failed to do so.There are over 30000 denominations because Satan creates confusion, he is the father of lies, people don't read the Bible, they believe what others tell them without questioning their source.I don't judge, I use the word of God, it's not me who judges, but the word, I say nothing from me.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is straight from the Bible.

I am just saying that those people were not christians because nowhere in the Bible we find teachings about reincarnation.You can not serve two masters, God and reincarnation...

Our conscience is the gift of God, one of the greatest gifts, it serves as a filter for what is good and what is wrong, not by judgement, but by knowing, you know when you do a good thing and you know when you do a bad thing.Of course, people can shut it down or change it in a bad way.Now, please tell me, what is your conscience saying about rebirth? Is it not that you can do whatever you want in life with no real fear of judgement? If you believe in karma, is it not a "easy" way to receive the "judgement" of your "mistakes"? There's has to be a final judgment, not because I say so but because our very own conscience is showing us that when we do something bad, we suffer, I am talking about that inner turmoil.

If good or evil where just relative truths, then, we would not have our conscience working they way it was planned by God to work.Now, the new age people come and say: "if this is good for you, do it or take it, if this is bad for you, leave it or run for it"; exactly what Satan did with Adam and Eve.

[sky]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

I see! Sky123, can you tell me from where this belief comes, is it not from hinduism?

A christian is one who believes the Word of God completely ( and this is not because I say so, of course not ).Nowhere in the Bible we find God or any other man talking about reincarnation. Reincarnation is against the Word of God because it denies everything the Bible stands for, do you agree? ( Not from the perspective of a believer but from a perspective of a rational thinking ).I know that when the Bible was put together there were many who tried to bring their gnostic beliefs into the Bible but they failed to do so.There are over 30000 denominations because Satan creates confusion, he is the father of lies, people don't read the Bible, they believe what others tell them without questioning their source.I don't judge, I use the word of God, it's not me who judges, but the word, I say nothing from me.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is straight from the Bible.

I am just saying that those people were not christians because nowhere in the Bible we find teachings about reincarnation.You can not serve two masters, God and reincarnation...

Our conscience is the gift of God, one of the greatest gifts, it serves as a filter for what is good and what is wrong, not by judgement, but by knowing, you know when you do a good thing and you know when you do a bad thing.Of course, people can shut it down or change it in a bad way.Now, please tell me, what is your conscience saying about rebirth? Is it not that you can do whatever you want in life with no real fear of judgement? If you believe in karma, is it not a "easy" way to receive the "judgement" of your "mistakes"? There's has to be a final judgment, not because I say so but because our very own conscience is showing us that when we do something bad, we suffer, I am talking about that inner turmoil.

If good or evil where just relative truths, then, we would not have our conscience working they way it was planned by God to work.Now, the new age people come and say: "if this is good for you, do it or take it, if this is bad for you, leave it or run for it"; exactly what Satan did with Adam and Eve.

Your perceptions which you are entitled to as are others who will disagree with you. Some Christians believe in Reincarnation, some don't, no problema

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by sky123

Your perceptions which you are entitled to as are others who will disagree with you. Some Christians believe in Reincarnation, some don't, no problema

If I am guided by perception then I am in the realm of relative truths, yet my view on good and evil does not come from me, it comes from the Bible, so, it's not my perception.

If a man murders a man with no reason, then, if your perception is really diluted, well, you may believe that it was a good thing, after all, we shall guide ourselves by perception.Can you see the lack of morality? This is the very reason for all the suffering in the world, people don't see the truth as being the truth and the evil as being the evil, they see what they want to see.

[sky]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

If I am guided by perception then I am in the realm of relative truths, yet my view on good and evil does not come from me, it comes from the Bible, so, it's not my perception.

If a man murders a man with no reason, then, if your perception is really diluted, well, you may believe that it was a good thing, after all, we shall guide ourselves by perception.Can you see the lack of morality? This is the very reason for all the suffering in the world, people don't see the truth as being the truth and the evil as being the evil, they see what they want to see.

' my view on good and evil does not come from me, it comes from the Bible '

Your views on good and evil should come from inside of you, not a book. The OT is full of violence so if you follow the bible you must following violence.

The Crusades/Inquistion absolutely disgusting violence towards others all perpetrated by Christians. Look at the behavior of the Christians over time, the same Christians who promote following the bible, so you see the hypocrisy.

You cannot judge a Christian by what book they follow but rather than their actions, ' By their fruits you will know them ', not by their bedside reading.

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by sky123

' my view on good and evil does not come from me, it comes from the Bible '

Your views on good and evil should come from inside of you, not a book. The OT is full of violence so if you follow the bible you must following violence.

The Crusades/Inquistion absolutely disgusting violence towards others all perpetrated by Christians. Look at the behavior of the Christians over time, the same Christians who promote following the bible, so you see the hypocrisy.

You cannot judge a Christian by what book they follow but rather than their actions, ' By their fruits you will know them ', not by their bedside reading.

For more than 2000 years we kept on deciding what is good and what is bad on our own, look where we are today.When you have the Holy Spirit, then you can talk from what is within you because then you are not alone, the Holy Spirit is within you, it speaks through you.And even then, you speak according to God's word, not from your own mind.

You see violence and I see evil being punished by God because God is not just Love, God is also Righteousness in everything.Once again, I'm calling for rational thinking, one who does not follow the Bible is not a christian, the catholic church is not the true representative of God.The Old Testament law was only the beginning, God knew that man can not keep His perfect law, that's why He sent us Jesus, to fulfil the law, now, if you repent, your sins can be forgiven by God, now He gives His Spirit freely to anyone who wants it.

So you tell me that anyone can be a christian, it does not matter what teachings you follow, you can be a christian... I am talking about the Bible not just any book, it is the word of God, if you call yourself a christian but you don't follow the Bible, then you are not a christian.

I am not here to spread hate or to fight with somebody, I am only stating the truth...

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by soulforce

I'm not a Christian. I'm willing to accept information and knowledge that you won't, hence there is a limit to the arguments you could use against me.

I don't accept false information. Do you? Probably not. The difference is that I have an objective, absolute and infallible standard for truth, whereas you use mere subjective experience, fallible logic and human emotion.

I also never said that there is no such thing as dead faith. I said that if faith was the precursor to works as you claimed, then if I ceased to do good works or bare good fruit, then I would have nullified the faith claim I made before. Either faith exist on it's own or it doesn't. If it doesn't exist on it's own than the philosophy "once saved always saved" is wrong from a hermeneutical stand point.

You are expressing a disconnect with the message of the gospel and scripture as a whole. I'll break it down as simply as possible for you. Through faith in Christ we are saved by the grace of God. Before faith we are unable to do good in the eyes of God. With faith we are given the Holy Spirit, which gives us a new heart and allows us to follow God's will. A person with "living" faith has the Holy Spirit and thus does good works. A person with "dead" faith does not have the Holy Spirit despite his alleged claims of faith, so even if he tries to do good deeds, they are not from God.

However James wants us to see that Faith does exist on it's own but is depended on baring works to survive. If the works ceases then the faith will eventually die. People who do good works may have faith because they have certainty in their works even if they don't know what it is.

No, James never said that. You are reading that into the text. James clearly and simply said that his good works are the proof of his faith. Your interpretation does not logically follow from this. Good works don't cease when one has the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not indwell those with works, He indwells those with faith. Thus it is losing your faith that would cause a person to lose the Holy Spirit, not a lack of works.

My experiences does determine what truth is. That's the only way I can ever determine or experience truth. Without lived experiences how could I be sentient or learn anything? You experienced reading the bible and learned about biblical teachings through your reading sessions, which is how you can base an epistemology that lead you to Christianity. My reasoning could be wrong true, but it could also be right too. Making a claim that my reasoning is not the determiner for truth based on a probability of me being wrong is illogical. It's like walking up to the counter and having to choices in ice cream flavors. I have a 50% chance of choosing one of two options, but you're certain I'm going with the chocolate ice cream because there is a chance that I will. So no you need to provide a better metaphor that doesn't rely on probability.

No, your experiences determine what you THINK is truth, which is quite different from what you said. The fact is that your reasoning is fallible and thus cannot logically be the standard for truth. Truth exists apart from what goes on in your head. God is truth and His revelation is truth. Any foundation apart from this is self defeating.

[SimpleMan]

VinceField, I am really glad that I am not the only one who stands for what is true and right.I had once a new age belief but God in His mercy showed me the evil that rules the world so that I may understand that if Satan is real and he is then the God of the Bible, the only true God is also real.I try to tell the people, look, I was just like you, but look now, I am completely changed, if this is not a sign, than I don't know what may help you see the truth.

The truth is the same yesterday, today and forever, if you believe in relative truths then you don't know the truth, because a relative truth is not the truth, but a lie, it changes, while the real truth, never changes.

[open2it]

I don't care what a religion believes because religion in my opinion is man's personal interpretation of the unknown according to what he hears or reads.

I don't care if any religion believes reincarnation is just a false teaching. I have known quite a few people that have had experiences in this lifetime that seem to point to their past lives.

As far as the belief we will either go to hell or heaven after we die is in my opinion a crock of false teaching. If one looks at the bible it seems to describe heaven and hell are right here in this life we are living. I don't remember ever hearing the verses talked about in church. Perhaps you have heard the verses discussed or explained in church.

I believe when we die our spirit/soul leaves this body but like Christ said " death where is thy sting". That by my understanding is saying we don't just rot in a casket or are burnt to ashes if we are cremated. Death in this life is not the end of us. If reincarnation is just a false teaching then I wonder why the souls cried out for their body. I am guessing in the hereafter we know we can again live in another body.

Now I am going to blow all I said out of the water. I consider myself a new age believer. I believe New Age is the Old Age and I believe Christ himself would be considered New Age if he walked the earth now. The Church had him crucified for teaching he was one with God and in reality so can we be. The Church and government couldn't have that. Today the Church and the government still don't want the people to know that.

[davidmartin]

the truth is love anything else is legalism
what is frustrating is that i can see it so clearly through the eyes that God gave me
but some insist on constructing obstacles that along the way require a rigid belief system and specific image of God, mediated by those in possession of holy books that only they can interpret. Jesus is so much more than this, so is God and so are we. the story continues...