Non-duality and Ethics & Morality

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The nature of personality is expressed in selfish desire based on duality and separation. The nature of Soul is expressed through selfless service, based on non-duality and non-separation. The issue is, do we identify with personality or with Soul consciousness?

Interesting di-chotomization, iamthat. Based on my understanding and corollary logic, I think that what you say is an over-simplification. I believe that 'young' (i.e. immature) souls do not fully understand and haven't yet mastered the facts and associated 'lesson's of non-duality and non-separation. When 'in' body, they therefore get 'caught up' or 'lost' in thoughts and feelings of duality and separation. Their main purpose of 'incarnating' is to learn to 'see through' and transcend such (in ultimate termsU 'illusions'.

When and if and to the degree that souls mature in terms of awareness and communion (i.e. integration) with others and (ultimately) with Life Itself, they choose to engage in what you reference as 'selfless service' (IMO it isn't really 'selfless, but rather the expression of an expanded, all-inclusive sense of 'self'), volitionally subordinate their 'personality' (personal predilections, desires, etc.) in service of their self-and-others-including 'whole'. I think this is reflected in the kind of 'evolutionary' soul-growth referenced in:

Originally Posted by iamthat

On the level of personality we are dealing with choices, ethical actions vs unethical actions. This is nothing to do with artificial social morals - what is acceptable in one society may not be acceptable in another. It comes down to whether our actions cause harm to ourselves or others.

Except that I would say that much more than 'harmlessness', i.e. not doing 'harm', is involved/entailed. There are a lot of peeps here who strike me as simply thinking that not doing 'harm' is all that is entailed/required for a soul to become and be fully-actualized (i.e. 'mature'). Not so, IMO. True Self-realization entials/requires that one become completely positively devoted to optimizing and augmenting The Flow of (self-and-other inclusive) Life.

Imagine a parent or a sibling thinking and feeling that all the Life entailed/required was that he or she not 'harm' his or her children or siblings? What kind of parent or sibling would that be? One who simply thought and felt that he or she could do absolutely anything he or she wanted to and enjoyed as long as it didn't 'harm' others? Where is the 'love' and 'devotion' in that? Just to 'self' as one's 'primary' love object, granting others the 'right' to do likewise, I would suggest.

Originally Posted by iamthat

On the level of Soul consciousness, then we recognize that actions are simply actions and the Self remains untouched by all actions. However, while we are in the worlds of form we have to act, but actions are motivated by love and compassion in the spirit of true harmlessness.

No action is simply action. Anything one does utlimately has an impact on every other aspets of Life, just as any movement by a molecule in a stream affects every others (via 'ripple effects). Again, I would say that 'love' and 'compassion' involve/entail much more than a 'spirit of harmlessness'. They involve actively choosing to relating to and positively augment to whatever degree one is able to the soul-development possibilities of others as one's own. This is what "Love your neighbor as yourself" means and actually entails.

Your focus on 'harmlessness' is very partial (hence inherently 'selfish') therefore, IMO.

"Whosoever wears a form, wears the chain too".

https://youtu.be/yJMqULiDtOM

Choiceless awareness, mindfulness and non-judgment are all well and good for cultivating non-reactivity to craving and aversion, however it's not license to dismiss ethics and morality. They are simply techniques, a means to an end and not an end in and of themselves.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Again, I would say that 'love' and 'compassion' involve/entail much more than a 'spirit of harmlessness'. They involve actively choosing to relating to and positively augment to whatever degree one is able to the soul-development possibilities of others as one's own. This is what "Love your neighbor as yourself" means and actually entails.

Your focus on 'harmlessness' is very partial (hence inherently 'selfish') therefore, IMO.

It depends on what we understand by harmlessness.

For me, true harmlessness is as described in the Alice Bailey teachings:

A close study of one's emotional reactions brings one to the consideration of that basic characteristic which cannot be over-emphasized in view of the world's present condition. Harmlessness. I tell you that the achieving of harmlessness in the positive sense (not in the negative) means the attainment of that step which leads definitely to the Portal of Initiation. When first mentioned, it sounds of small moment, and to bring the whole subject of initiation into such small account that it becomes unimportant. But let him who so thinks practice that positive harmlessness which works out in right thought (because based on intelligent love), right speech (because governed by self-control), and right action (because founded on an understanding of the Law), and he will find that the attempt will call forth all the resources of his being and take much time to achieve.

It is not the harmlessness that comes from weakness and sentimental loving disposition, which dislikes trouble because it upsets the settled harmony of life and leads to consequent discomfort. It is not the harmlessness of the little evolved negative impotent man or woman, who has not the power to hurt because possessing so little equipment wherewith damage can be done.

It is the harmlessness that springs from true understanding and control of the personality by the soul, that leads inevitably to spiritual expression in every-day life. It emanates from a capacity to enter into the consciousness and to penetrate into the realisation of one's brother, and when this has been accomplished—all is forgiven and all is lost sight of in the desire to aid and to help.

Peace.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by iamthat

It depends on what we understand by harmlessness.

For me, true harmlessness is as described in the Alice Bailey teachings:

A close study of one's emotional reactions brings one to the consideration of that basic characteristic which cannot be over-emphasized in view of the world's present condition. Harmlessness. I tell you that the achieving of harmlessness in the positive sense (not in the negative) means the attainment of that step which leads definitely to the Portal of Initiation. When first mentioned, it sounds of small moment, and to bring the whole subject of initiation into such small account that it becomes unimportant. But let him who so thinks practice that positive harmlessness which works out in right thought (because based on intelligent love), right speech (because governed by self-control), and right action (because founded on an understanding of the Law), and he will find that the attempt will call forth all the resources of his being and take much time to achieve.

It is not the harmlessness that comes from weakness and sentimental loving disposition, which dislikes trouble because it upsets the settled harmony of life and leads to consequent discomfort. It is not the harmlessness of the little evolved negative impotent man or woman, who has not the power to hurt because possessing so little equipment wherewith damage can be done.

It is the harmlessness that springs from true understanding and control of the personality by the soul, that leads inevitably to spiritual expression in every-day life. It emanates from a capacity to enter into the consciousness and to penetrate into the realisation of one's brother, and when this has been accomplished—all is forgiven and all is lost sight of in the desire to aid and to help.

Peace.

!!!!

Consider this, however. 'Harmlessness' is a miss-nomer then. Why 'extol' harmlessness? It leads to things like fundamentalist buddhists not digging the foundations of a house because they wish not to 'harm' any worms! The "desire to aid and help" stems from LOVE, not from a wish/desire not to 'harm'. Words matter, aye what?

P.S. the same "not" issue pertains to the "Neti, Neti" philosophy, I think. Result is peeps not positively embracing and developing their personalities and finessing rather than creatively resolving personality-related issues, IMO.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Choiceless awareness, mindfulness and non-judgment are all well and good for cultivating non-reactivity to craving and aversion, however it's not license to dismiss ethics and morality. They are simply techniques, a means to an end and not an end in and of themselves.

to this qualification, Guy.

[7luminaries]

Great thread gents.
I have actually assimilated & largely agreed with every post on this thread

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

"Whosoever wears a form, wears the chain too".

https://youtu.be/yJMqULiDtOM

Choiceless awareness, mindfulness and non-judgment are all well and good for cultivating non-reactivity to craving and aversion, however it's not license to dismiss ethics and morality. They are simply techniques, a means to an end and not an end in and of themselves.

SimpleGuy,
Yes agreed. This is a good point. Also it nicely sums up the "hard problem" with non-duality as it is understood by some. I.e., as a "refuge" from ownership and responsibility for one's intent and actions (choices).
And thus moving forward on one's path.

Ethics and morality come into focus at the most detailed level of the individual. The individuated consciousness, incarnated in this time and place.
In order for ethics and morality to be meaningful to the individual, everyone needs to accept ownership of their own intent, thought, word, and deed.

Put another way, we first have to accept that we (as a unique, individuated consciousness) are each responsible for our own unique intent and thought, and for our own unique words and deeds here whilst incarnated.
We are responsible for the entirety of the self...body and soul or consciousness (pick word of choice)...even though of course we exist in interbeing with one another and all that is.
Put yet another way, you cannot blame interbeing or One for your unique, individuated intent or actions

Once we take ownership and commit to being and doing consciously (with presence) in the moment, then we can weigh and discern whether something WE each do or say (or think or intend) is ethical or moral.
That is, whether our intent and action are authentically loving toward self and others.
And by that, I mean do we actively seek and support the highest good of one and all. Of others equally to the self, and the self equally to others.

Typically, IMO it's when we get down to the concrete, unique, individuated level of the self and others (community or groups of selves), day-to-day in our material realm
that we can speak concretely and truly of ethics, morality, and their universal or eternal basis in authentic love.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by iamthat

It depends on what we understand by harmlessness.

For me, true harmlessness is as described in the Alice Bailey teachings:

A close study of one's emotional reactions brings one to the consideration of that basic characteristic which cannot be over-emphasized in view of the world's present condition. Harmlessness. I tell you that the achieving of harmlessness in the positive sense (not in the negative) means the attainment of that step which leads definitely to the Portal of Initiation. When first mentioned, it sounds of small moment, and to bring the whole subject of initiation into such small account that it becomes unimportant. But let him who so thinks practice that positive harmlessness which works out in right thought (because based on intelligent love), right speech (because governed by self-control), and right action (because founded on an understanding of the Law), and he will find that the attempt will call forth all the resources of his being and take much time to achieve.

It is not the harmlessness that comes from weakness and sentimental loving disposition, which dislikes trouble because it upsets the settled harmony of life and leads to consequent discomfort. It is not the harmlessness of the little evolved negative impotent man or woman, who has not the power to hurt because possessing so little equipment wherewith damage can be done.

It is the harmlessness that springs from true understanding and control of the personality by the soul, that leads inevitably to spiritual expression in every-day life. It emanates from a capacity to enter into the consciousness and to penetrate into the realisation of one's brother, and when this has been accomplished—all is forgiven and all is lost sight of in the desire to aid and to help.

Peace.

Thank you iamthat

[Shivani Devi]

From the position of Tantra and classical Non Duality, ethics and morals are imposed (by self or other) conditioned behaviours from within the framework of Duality itself.

For example, Aghoris make a practice of performing "immoral" acts to show they are not identified with the physical body, however, if that were truly the case, and if they were approaching this through an actual Non Dual awareness, there would be nobody there doing anything ethical or unethical, moral or immoral, so any point they made would be moot anyway.

Others may perceive it in the way of actions and behaviours falling into certain Dualist categories, but that is only an objective view about a subjective experience when neither subject nor object exists for it to be either objectified or subjectified - and when words do not exist, we make them up to totally screw with Google's spell checker.....muahaha.

[Joe Mc]

!"!"£"$£$£££%%%$

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

From the position of Tantra and classical Non Duality, ethics and morals are imposed (by self or other) conditioned behaviours from within the framework of Duality itself.

We wear a form which exists in the duality of objective reality and that binds us to the chain of karma (and ethics, morality, happiness, sadness, guilt, pride, anger, hatred, jealousy, etc...).

It seems to me prior to becoming enlightened and since we wear a form and are bound to the chain and duality we must work within that framework in order to escape it.

Well, at least if we're going to engage the world and not sit in a cave in the Himalayas and meditate an entire life away in near total isolation. Otherwise we wear a dualistic body with a dualistic brain that produces a dualistic mind which produces dualistic thinking. This is unavoidable short of enlightenment, or so it seems to me.