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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Astrology

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  #1  
Old 20-02-2012, 08:22 AM
Yamah
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Pluto... still use it?

It's been quite a while since the Astronomy community demoted Pluto from planetary status. As far as I know modern Astrologers still use it as Scorpio's ruler. I personally still do, having found great significance in its usage.

For those of you who DO use Pluto, what about other large 'dwarf planets' such as Eris, Ceres, Haumea or Makemake? Do you use them? Do you believe they should be assigned rulerships as well (Eris over Libra, Ceres over Virgo)?
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  #2  
Old 20-02-2012, 08:46 AM
Greybeard
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I continue to use Pluto. It has demonstrated effects. I use no asteroids or minor planets. How much "detail" do we need in a chart?
I do not give the three modern planets rulerships, except when the chart itself begs for it (where they are exceptionally prominent), as in the chart of Einstein with its soliataire Uranus I give it rulership over Aquarius.

In the chart of Bobby Fischer, the chess player, I give Uranus rulership over Aquarius because of its aspects and the fact that Saturn is separating and rapidly loses its dynamic power, while Uranus is a primary participant in the chart, and in fact is one of the three planets defining the structure of the whole chart and occupies the central position. This leads to a very important Mutual Dispoition, and an interesting commentary on cross-sign aspects and their importance. Fischer had an IQ of 185.

The "demotion" was simply necessary housecleaning on the part of the astronomers. Pluto is inherently the Outcast; his ignonimous treatment at the hands of a bunch of Pilsner-swilling stargazers should come as no surprise. At the time the vote was taken Pluto was in the Ascendant in Prague.

Pluto = outcasts, elimination, rejects and rejection, purification, far-reaching changes, the outsider.

Botanists do the same thing all the time and no one takes notice. It was simply a reclassification.

You can read most charts with or without the three moderns and get the same results. I use them because they refine if nothing else, and very often give new information. Also their transits are very often highly significant.
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  #3  
Old 21-02-2012, 06:08 AM
Yamah
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Well, aren't you a funny old elf?

It's rare to find people who still use classic astrology. I suppose only those with a closer grasp on tradition would do so. I am a mere peasant and follow the trends of my time... in this case anyways.

Eris is larger but further out than Pluto. If Pluto is included in Astrological charts then most certainly Eris should be. Though I don't know of any software that includes her and I'm too young to know how to figure it out by hand.
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  #4  
Old 21-02-2012, 08:13 AM
Greybeard
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Actually there are many traditional astrologers, quite of few of whom use only seven planets. Nearly all Hindu astrologers use only the seven ancient planets.

I can understand using Eris. And Ceres. And Chiron. And the 2000000 or so other bodies of our solar system. I'm sure we could use the man-made satellites buzzing right over our heads.

Where do we draw the line, and why?

For Eris ephemeris options, try: http://www.thegreenduck.com/ka/NewPl...Eris-eph.shtml

The question I would ask myself as a student of astrology is not how many and which planets should I use, but...Do my present methods give reliable and useful results? My question to you is, do all these new solar system bodies provide information not available with a simpler system? If they do allow us to make meaningful statements to our clients that we could not make by using a simpler set of tools, then of course the additional bodies should be used. But if they do not allow this, then they only complicate what is already a complex system and clutter the horoscope and our mind. Thoreau said, "Simplify, simplify." I think that is good advice.

The nodes of the Moon have been used by astrologers for at least 2000 years. I challenge you to find any complete, reliable and consistent description of their nature that is practical and useful in either western or vedic sources. What interpretation do you give to the nodes, and why? Western astrology says that the North Node is "good, positive, a benefic influence." But the Hindus, who give the nodes tremendous importance in their work (to the point that they are called planets) consider both nodes as evil. This discrepancy is not acceptable.

What then are we supposed to say about these new, minor bodies? We have little or no experience with them.

As I understand it, Eris has been given the meaning of "chaos" because of the name given the planet. If this is correct, then I must strongly disagree. Astrological symbolism does not proceed out of mythology. It must be derived wholly from astronomical fact. If astrology must rely on mythology, or any other source outside of astronomy, for the derivation of its symbolism, it is no longer astro-logy.

The interesting thing about astrology is that, ultimately, it is nothing more than a construct of the human mind. It is really nothing more than a fully integrated, holistic, highly logical system of thought. The entire structure of astrology is based on analogy. I seriously doubt that there are any magical rays emanating from Saturn that cause me to be sad. And of course the wonderful thing about such a system is that you can use Eris and all the rest so long as you can fit them into your own system of thought; if your mind can devise a logical place for any body or point that fits into the system, then that body or point can be used meaningfully. But once again, the question intrudes on my own thinking: how many of these bodies is enough to form a complete system? If the system is complete with seven bodies, or ten, then there is much to be said against adding further elements to the system.

E.C. Wilson, in his book Consilience describes the qualities of mathematical models and scientific theories. He notes 4 characteristics of these models/theories that scientists look for. First among them is parsimony, which stipulates that the model/theory/system should contain as few elements as possible. Here we find scientists echoing Thoreau. This quality of parsimony certainly applies to systems of thought generally; the less the extraneous or superfluous, the better. And that is my point about more planets: are they superfluous, or are they essential to the proper operation of astrology? I happen to think they are far from essential.
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  #5  
Old 21-02-2012, 09:53 AM
Yamah
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I firmly believe that Divine Providence is at work in all things that affect the world on a global scale. The naming of the planets would be such a thing. Without meaning to do so all the modern planets were assigned appropriate names for their later discovered astrological meanings and I feel confident that Eris and Ceres and the rest are in the same situation. Of course investigation and verification must be used to discover exactly how one should translate things from Mythology to Astrology (Neptune to Illusion/Obligation makes sense though it isn't directly understood). Eris as Chaos would be the first thing that comes to mind but it could also be Order and Harmony in certain aspects or Confusion or Misdirection or Deception or Frustration or Depression or Destruction or Order or something even more remote... how to narrow down the meaning and possible interpretations will definitely take a lot of work from a dedicated astrologer.
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  #6  
Old 21-02-2012, 01:29 PM
Greybeard
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There you are. First, mythology cannot be the source of astrological symbolism. But assuming we accept that, look at the words you chose for Eris....
Neptune is said to be the Higher Octave of Venus, Harmony. Confusion, Misdirection, Deception, Frustration all belong to Neptune -- No Eris is necessary. Depression would be Saturn's realm, as are Order and Destruction. Eris is superfluous, and does not fit the desired parsimony.

We can remove Neptune from the pantheon, and assign those meanings to other planets as well.

In Greek mythology, Hades does not destroy or punish the dead; he simply holds them. I must therefore assume that the planet Pluto does not destroy. Clearly contrary to experience. To borrow meaning from mythology, rather than deriving it from celestial facts, is inconsistent. Astrology should, must be, a self-contained art without necessary reference to anything outside its own realm.

The original Neptune,who was of Cretan origin, had llittle or nothing to do with the sea. He was a god of horses and earthquakes.

New Age astrologers say that the three modern planets are social/collective and have little to do directly with the native of a chart. Read Robert Pelletier's descriptions of aspects of Pluto to see the outcome of this viewpoint. The first horoscope you meet with a prominent Pluto will show you his errors. There is no room for doubt that the three outer planets have very specific individual effects.

There is a big difference between astrologers who accept such pronouncements as valid on their face (they are the Book Astrologers), and the ones who constantly test and experiment.
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  #7  
Old 22-02-2012, 07:03 AM
Yamah
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Well I don't actually KNOW what Eris is up to - those words were just brainstorms... and I guess I'm still feeling the neptune vibes from your other thread.

Pluto I understand as the deeper judge of what is remembered and what is repressed. I also see in it the death card of Tarot - destruction as a form of change or transition from one paradigm to the next. Pluto is also the outcast, being sent alone to Hades (until he found Persephone).

I've never experienced Pluto as a purely destructive planet, except possibly as self-destructive when poorly aspected or when leading something to a paradigm shift (for the better or for the worse). There is always an afterlife.

As far as the collective vs. individual, certainly it affects both. I looked at the three outer planets, especially Pluto, over the past hundred years and you can clearly see how they affect trends in our social unconscious. Pluto as the outcast shows us all the counter-cultures which sprung up, from the Leo rock and roll liberation to the Virgoan grassroots hippies to the Libran peace and love hippies, to the scorpian punks, goths and grunge to the saggitarian clique divide (with so many little movements, especially New Age and Indie), to the still developing Capricornian counterculture of today.
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  #8  
Old 22-02-2012, 07:27 AM
Greybeard
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Gee, I have watched Pluto commit suicide a couple of times. I suppose that is just hastening one's transmigration. The coroner said it looked like death was caused by a change of paradigm.

Neptune has symbolized chaos since its discovery. Eris is unnecessary. It is a racial trait of mankind to make the simple complex and create problems where none existed.
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