Was Jesus saving people from hell or from themselves?

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by theophilus

Paul explains this subject more clearly in his letter to the Romans. The entire human race is guilty of sinning against God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:18-23 ESV

God is holy and sinless. If he permitted sin to go unpunished he would cease to be sinless so he must punish us. The only way we can escape punishment is for someone else to take our guilt on himself and bear the punishment we deserve. That is what Jesus did when he died on the cross. The fact that he rose from the dead shows that God accepted his sacrifice. Because Jesus is God as well as man his sacrifice was enough to pay for all sins, so anyone can be forgiven by repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Jesus.

this is the formulation put forward in a literalist point of view, but there are many other alternatives. I find the above doesn't make sense to me, but if it works for others that's ok, everyone has their own point of view I guess. so long as the essence of Christianity is in place that's the main thing

Themselves.

[sky]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Themselves.

we are our own worst enemy.

[davidmartin]

The entire human race is guilty of sinning against God

the more i think about this, the less i believe it and think it's actually a mistake to believe this. i mean, how do we know this idea came from Jesus. it sounds like something meant to trap us in hell not free us from it!

[neil]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

the more i think about this, the less i believe it and think it's actually a mistake to believe this. i mean, how do we know this idea came from Jesus. it sounds like something meant to trap us in hell not free us from it!

One can not sin against God, because one can not affect God.

However, one can sin against the Holy Spirit...& sin means to "miss the mark".
And to sin against the Holy Spirit, is to miss the mark or desire of God, that all should choose to recieve the Holy Spiritual essence of & from God.

Because this is how God designed us to be.
We are born as "Natural spiritual Soul beings" & in recieving the "Holy Spiritual Essence of God" in sufficient quantities, will literally reconstruct the essence of "Soul'self", into the very essence of God.

& again it does not affect god if you sin/choose to not recieve the "Holy spiritual essence of God" it only affects you if you do not.

Once the Soul'self has recieved the Holy Spiritual Essence of God in sufficient quantities, one is then not capable of creating sin, as sinfulness is then not of that persons nature any longer...& one is then as God is. all Holy, all Loving & all Merciful.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by neil

One can not sin against God, because one can not affect God.

However, one can sin against the Holy Spirit...& sin means to "miss the mark".
And to sin against the Holy Spirit, is to miss the mark or desire of God, that all should choose to recieve the Holy Spiritual essence of & from God.

Because this is how God designed us to be.
We are born as "Natural spiritual Soul beings" & in recieving the "Holy Spiritual Essence of God" in sufficient quantities, will literally reconstruct the essence of "Soul'self", into the very essence of God.

& again it does not affect god if you sin/choose to not recieve the "Holy spiritual essence of God" it only affects you if you do not.

Once the Soul'self has recieved the Holy Spiritual Essence of God in sufficient quantities, one is then not capable of creating sin, as sinfulness is then not of that persons nature any longer...& one is then as God is. all Holy, all Loving & all Merciful.

Neil, you once again got it right: sin means "missing the mark".

[neil]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Neil, you once again got it right: sin means "missing the mark".

Yes, however do not miss the message in the post.

Which is, to not recieve sufficient quantities of God's spiritual essence, is to not be in an atonement state of being, with God.

& to not have access to the very many mansions within the Holy Kingdom.

So always endeavor to know & remember that the Holy spirit, is not Jesus, but in fact is the very essence of God.
& that there is absolutely no mediator nessesary for us to recieve Gods love & very essence, of which will completely alter our entire essence & way of being.

There are absolutely no meditaion modalities ETC nessesary. Only knowledge of the spiritual essence of God & what it can & will do for us, & for us to desire for it & the transformation that it brings.

[davidmartin]

Neil, i like

Although you said the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, isn't there a sense where Jesus becomes interchangeable with the Spirit in people's minds and experience? I'm not talking about the whole question of the earthly Jesus and his nature at all here... just that when people today use the name it is inseparable from the Spirit.

So there are no mediators only role models and advocates, helpers. Jesus is a mediator in the sense above

So why then did a more literalist understanding come about, where mediators became necessary and not only that but the Spirit became not the most important thing any more? Why did that happen and why do so many people prefer that. what is the entire reason for this? and won't a lot of people get upset if you tell them these things? what is the wise way to respond to all of this?

[neil]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

Neil, i like

Although you said the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, isn't there a sense where Jesus becomes interchangeable with the Spirit in people's minds and experience? I'm not talking about the whole question of the earthly Jesus and his nature at all here... just that when people today use the name it is inseparable from the Spirit.

So there are no mediators only role models and advocates, helpers. Jesus is a mediator in the sense above

So why then did a more literalist understanding come about, where mediators became necessary and not only that but the Spirit became not the most important thing any more? Why did that happen and why do so many people prefer that. what is the entire reason for this? and won't a lot of people get upset if you tell them these things? what is the wise way to respond to all of this?

Jesus of Nazareth became a Christed child of the Heavenly Father Christ entity, Through the New Birth of Soul'self. And yourself & anyone else can become a christed child as well.

Would you expect or want to be refered to as christ, or would you still wish to be known by your Christian name. I know that I would still want to be known as Neil. I wonder if Jesus would prefer being known as Jesus instead of Christ.

It is more than likely that there are many other Earth like planets in the spiritual universe. & other Earth like people from other planets, had desired for the New birth of Soul'self & had also received the New Birth & all that it brings.
& if there were Billions of other people from other planets who have been transformed, should they be called Christ as well. Would Jesus want to be known as Christ if he was not the first person ever christed.

Jesus was not ever a nessesity, for anyone receiving the Holy Spirit & the transformation. however he did become transformed himself & then taught people of it & how to receive it.

His teachings became distorted over time, he tried in vain to have his apostles understand it all. however, it seems to have fallen on deaf ears with them.
Before & after Jesus was murdered the apostles were winging & whining about Mary this & Mary that. & before jesus being murdered they were even complaining about some woman washing Jesus' feat in expensive ointment. they could just not get it right. One betrayed Jesus, & another lied about being close to Jesus, & on it goes eh.

If any of them had come even remotely close to being a Christed being, they would not have acted & or spoken in the way that they had.

And so if his closest of assistants (apostles) had have understood the true meaning of Christ essence (Holy Spirit), the New Birth of Soulself ETC. Then just maybe the Newbirth & all that it brings & does for any person. May have been the most important thing, first & foremost on every persons mind, then & today.

[sky]

Originally Posted by neil

Jesus of Nazareth became a Christed child of the Heavenly Father Christ entity, Through the New Birth of Soul'self. And yourself & anyone else can become a christed child as well.

Would you expect or want to be refered to as christ, or would you still wish to be known by your Christian name. I know that I would still want to be known as Neil. I wonder if Jesus would prefer being known as Jesus instead of Christ.

It is more than likely that there are many other Earth like planets in the spiritual universe. & other Earth like people from other planets, had desired for the New birth of Soul'self & had also received the New Birth & all that it brings.
& if there were Billions of other people from other planets who have been transformed, should they be called Christ as well. Would Jesus want to be known as Christ if he was not the first person ever christed.

Jesus was not ever a nessesity, for anyone receiving the Holy Spirit & the transformation. however he did become transformed himself & then taught people of it & how to receive it.

His teachings became distorted over time, he tried in vain to have his apostles understand it all. however, it seems to have fallen on deaf ears with them.
Before & after Jesus was murdered the apostles were winging & whining about Mary this & Mary that. & before jesus being murdered they were even complaining about some woman washing Jesus' feat in expensive ointment. they could just not get it right. One betrayed Jesus, & another lied about being close to Jesus, & on it goes eh.

If any of them had come even remotely close to being a Christed being, they would not have acted & or spoken in the way that they had.

And so if his closest of assistants (apostles) had have understood the true meaning of Christ essence (Holy Spirit), the New Birth of Soulself ETC. Then just maybe the Newbirth & all that it brings & does for any person. May have been the most important thing, first & foremost on every persons mind, then & today.

What is a Christed being Neil? I have never heard of this before