Buddhism and Apathy

Hiya,

I guess I'm seeing it from a Buddhist point of view. It's fantastic for me to read the point of views of the partners/families of Buddhists & their ways. I think it's perfectly normal to feel out of sync with this due to the difference in "perception" as I too, use to feel this way & wanted someone to BE who I wanted them to BE in order to make me feel more comfortable. It didn't work then, never could work, so I stopped trying to control & change others only to discover that true change began within me. To change the world, change yourself first. Actually, I reckon by changing the way you perceive your world, your world changes instantly. Try to see it with a positive outlook, rather than a fearful one.

If your father is not forcing his religion down your throat, harming himself or others, is miserable etc., then where is the problem, hmmm?

The thing with Buddhism is that it's primary goal is to end all suffering by first, putting an end to it within oneself first through the various Buddhist practices (detachment being one of them). It's about living an egoless existance.

It really does sound like your father does not suffer, thus, is egoless. Emotion is of ego-based in my view, which lead to suffering. Emotion is the reaction stemming from beliefs.

Because it sounds like the partners and family of Buddhists are "suffering" over who their Buddhist practicing significant others choose to be, then who seeks to change here? As it seems to be what is the issue here. Acceptance of another persons beliefs goes a long, long way to peace all round.

If your father accepts you and what you do or practice in life and your beliefs, can you accept his?

Originally Posted by angelicious

Hiya,

Acceptance of another persons beliefs goes a long, long way to peace all round.

I sure wish everyone here felt this way. It sure would make this an even better forum, and make the staff's job much easier. I've never understood how intolerant people can still consider themselves to be spiritual minded.

John

Originally Posted by tiltjlp

I sure wish everyone here felt this way. It sure would make this an even better forum, and make the staff's job much easier. I've never understood how intolerant people can still consider themselves to be spiritual minded.

John

Hiya, yeah, I reckon tolerance and acceptance is misunderstood and usually perceived as rolling over and giving up who you think you are, as well as agreeing to a life lived by another. I think tolerance and acceptance means not judging ourselves and other peoples ways of living which includes religious practices, and being supportive by not trying to inflict change upon one another. Change is a natural process of each individual and is their right to undergo change only when they feel the need to change for themselves.

Here for instance - one Buddhist, one Non-Buddhist and one of them "perceives" and judges the other as wrong. If you change the perception, this misunderstanding and judgement, which leads to a person wanting another to change, you will have one Buddhist, one non-Buddhist. Is it just me that sees no problems in being a Buddhist or a non-Buddhist?

Which reminds me of a post I read, of a Zen proverb I've heard before. It goes: "Before enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood. After enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood." Or something like that, lol.

Originally Posted by Pathwalker

....it does seem that he isn't fulfilling his role (such as avoiding social situations)- i think you had it spot on when you said he may be using his buddhism to give up activities which he may have struggled with.

Hiya Pathwalker,

Lol, whatever religion you are or not, a social life is an optional extra, it's not gonna effect who you are if you have one or not. Most people prefer their own company, it's of no real concern, is it?

Out of curiosity, how does giving up activities that are a struggle considered a bad thing? Go on, humour me, lol.

I mean, why live for drama, when you can live for peace. I know, my life is drama-less and I certainly won't chase drama to prove I'm alive, tehehe. And, do you really think if someone is apathetic, they must have a problem, or be defective or be depressed?

If this is so, we'll have to medicate the whole human race with anti-depressents if they show signs of being peaceful and passive and apathetic, lol.

Hello Angelicious, cool nick by the way!
FIrst of all i would like to say that i possess no intention of humouring you, as im in agreeance with Ubiquitous here, e-ma's father is in a potentially harmful situation and it's no laughing matter. Have you ever heard the expression that "no man is an island"?. Are you aware of the interconnectiveness of all sentient beings? For as long as humans and animals have been on this planet, we have been working together for our personal and global evolution. Even talking on these forums is considered a social activity nowadays. If we were all to give up everything that we considered a struggle then the world would halt where it is, this is where spiritual practice becomes apathy. I'm not trying to convince you that everyone has to have a social life, as even the Buddha attainted enlightenment in isolation. However just as some food for thought, was the Buddha emotionless? I've been where e-ma's father has been and it's not the way and from my understanding a common place for those new to Buddhism without any help from outside, fortunately i had people (in my social circle) that helped pull me out of the place i was in and point me in the right direction. I view e-ma's father as limiting his responsibility by detaching from everything (improperly) and as a result he has impaired his own freedom so that he might not even enjoy his son coming home.

Hi again,

I think that you missed my point, the issue wasn’t being out of sync with my partner, he IS still a Buddhist. Rather my point was that problems can arise when a person adopts a belief set without the proper guidance to implement it the way it’s supposed to be implemented. Lets face it you have literally millions of writings on Buddhism, all encapsulating a certain (and differing) mantra on how the life of a Buddhist should be lived, all going about following that path with varying techniques and thus results. As with any type of religion without guidance from those who know more we are more than likely to make mistakes to our and others determents….even Buddhist monks have a master to help guide them on their way, even after years of extensive training… so I’m thinking that reading a few books, surfing the net is not only dangerous but also the quick fix version of Buddhism… and by referring to the label of Buddhist one is not detached and ego free any way!

As for it being ego-less I would think that the statement that ‘I never worry about anything” would have to be in fact ego driven. The fact that e-mas father not only identifies with this statement and then owns it would make me think that he is not only attached to it but also that the ego is using it as a way of defining himself, thus against the principals that he is integrating into his life. In my opinion a statement such as the one e-ma’s father has made is the ego talking….. a statement such as worrying does not serve a useful purpose or why worry about things that are the way we are… are less driven by ego. I do wonder however given the society we live in, the lives we lead whether we can truly ever say we are ego free. It’s all good for monks who meditate 18 hours a day, live out of the cities and basically are not encumbered with the details of day-to -day living to detach and to become free from their ego. How is it possible for the rest of us, without taking drastic steps like relocating and changing our entire way of life, to be totally detached and ego free. In relation to the detached part, in reality is that what people crave, or is it the being free from suffering? To be detached is to love without attachment, surely to love is also to be attached?? If the people we loved most were to leave us surely we would feel that loss? Would want to feel that loss, as much as it would hurt? If their was no sense of loss then is it love at all? In my opinion it is what we attach to that is important, and how we go about it that makes all the difference.

I am all for people following the paths they choose and completely respect and support that. My point is you can’t cut corners and do it yourself, you need guidance and help… you don’t just wake up one day and decide to be a Buddhist (attachment) it just doesn’t work that way, it takes years and years of studying and training… I’ll think you find those who follow Buddhism in the way that it was intended wouldn’t call themselves Buddhist, rather they live their lives following the ways of Buddhism.

Oh and as for the comment on whether social isolation is a good thing or a bad thing…. I would think that the answer would be obvious. No man is an island and no person can survive long periods of being alone, it not only is unhealthy but also dangerous to us psychologically (many, many scientific and published studies on this topic)…hence the solitary confinement in prisons as a way of punishment. If were to live isolated is that living at all, what do you experience and what do you miss out on experiencing? Buddhism teaches balance and freedom from duality, surely if those factors are missing then we are not practising Buddhism at all?

As for the medicating the enire human race for showing signs of depression, no not for showing signs, we all exhibit them at one point or another... but when these signs are maintained and become part of the persons day to day functioning then yes it is time to worry! It is irresponsible to project the view that this is not a possibility, as I suggested, not a fact. People get depressed, people need help, not all people but some... and to suggest that to exhibit signs of depression and to leave them unmonitored as a precaution is just silly... if it was a loved one of yours would you be giving the same advice?? Its easy to to say just to accept it when it isn't your loved one and it dosn't effect your life, try living it, try watching it..... and then tell me there is no reason for concern at all! As for the actual medication part, very last resort in treating depression and not one I personally would advise unless really needed (i am in the field), their are other options that are not only more effective but treat the reasons for depression rather than the symptoms!

Just on another note angelicious, in response to your comment about how it seems that e-ma's father does not suffer thus must be egoless. This conclusion doesn't logically follow as he doesn't experience the dual opposite either which is love and joy. He has simply closed himself down to suffering instead of opening himself up to both joy and suffering, experiencing it, then letting it go. I believe that Buddhism stresses acceptance of both pleasure and pain, not inacceptance.
Regards
Pathwalker

Hey E-ma

i got a real feel through your post for some of what i did to my loved ones when i first started my (conscious) spiritual journey. Thankyou for the insight. I now know how others could have helped me at the time

Your father is on his own path.

Whatever you see in him also exists in you - you could not see it otherwise.

What are you apathetic about?

I've always found that if i handle things in my universe they disappear in others........

Its just a viewpoint but i hope it helps.

Kindly,
inspiration

Originally Posted by inspiration

Hey E-ma

i got a real feel through your post for some of what i did to my loved ones when i first started my (conscious) spiritual journey. Thankyou for the insight. I now know how others could have helped me at the time

Your father is on his own path.

Whatever you see in him also exists in you - you could not see it otherwise.

What are you apathetic about?

I've always found that if i handle things in my universe they disappear in others........

Its just a viewpoint but i hope it helps.

Kindly,
inspiration

And a fantastic viewpoint that is Inspiration, I bet this perception, relating to how the universe works, serves you well as it does me.

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

…hence the solitary confinement in prisons as a way of punishment. If were to live isolated is that living at all, what do you experience and what do you miss out on experiencing? Buddhism teaches balance and freedom from duality, surely if those factors are missing then we are not practising Buddhism at all?

Hiya,

Well, I don't know what alone means for you but do you really view it as a prison?

I see, solitude as a blessing, a chance to further get to know me (the Buddha-nature within) without interference or others impressing themselves on you. You get to meditate in peace and much more, solitude rocks! Company is fantastic too, sharing the views of others etc. Yet in solitude, you get to just Be, there's so much more freedom in that don't you think?

I see why Lord Buddha attained enlightenment in solitutde, and I'm Catholic.

Also, thought I best mention that the word "worry" describes another form of "fear." I think it can be said that fear is a spiritual retardent. Thus, when someone says, "I never worry about anything" I would think people would embrace such a liberating attribute than see fault in it. I guess it's not the darkness that is feared, rather, it is the light that is feared.