Does schizophrenia indirectly mean spiritual awakening

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thank you.

You are very welcome.

[green1]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm going to plough my way through this but for now, it looks interesting. Thanks

You're welcome.

Cheers,
green1

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I used to work with a branch of the National Schizophrenia Society in the UK, which I think is defunct nowadays and I am borderline schizophrenic dues to a 'fractured' personality due to physical and emotional abuse I suffered in childhood. So from a purely medical perspective, one of the ideas was that schizophrenia wasn't a disorder in its own right but a 'collection' of different disorders - just like melancholia.

That's a very accurate description of what I experience, although not so much recently because I've tried to 'adapt'.

Many people have schizophrenia but carry on with their everyday lives, and it's possible there are a few on this forum. Sometimes their behaviour can be seen as "a little odd" but that can be their ability to cope with schizophrenia. Others are just really good at playing normal.

I'd guess Moses was schizophrenic, either that or he was delirious with spending all that time in the desert. And if someone's Higher Self talks to them, how do they know it's actually their Higher Self?

I attended an induction course for the National Schizophrenia Society and the first question was "What is mental health?" He went around the room for answers, some of them very professional too but none of them what he was looking for. "Mental health is what the shrink says it is on the day." was the answer. What constitutes "harmful" is very subjective but usually it means they're not likely - likely in the shrinks assessment - to cause harm to themselves or others. It has a societal component too.

There are a few sources that make the case as regards Spirituality and mental health, but the medical profession generally won't go near Spirituality because Spirituality is a belief system at the end of the day. As far as the medical profession is concerned I'd guess that schizophrenia is only one issue that can affect Spirituality. Yes, it does get very complicated medical-ways.

The question is, if you label everything as Spiritual, how do you know if you have a mental health issue or not? If people are going to be very honest with themselves, how much of their Spirituality is down to trying to run away from something that they know themselves 'isn't right'?

Until we have a genuine, non-agenda, non fear-based discussion about mental health - and mental health does affect Spirituality regardless - Spirituality will still be stuck in the dark days of when people were locked up for not being normal.

My synopsis for your perusal:

Each of us has been raised with certain cognitive predispositions and biases which not only affects the way we choose to live our own lives, but they also affect the values and judgments we place upon others - whether or not it is true for the other, with reference to their own unique cognition and life experiences, which those who sit in judgment haven't personally experienced themselves.

I am not making reference to any individual here, on this forum or elsewhere...I am merely speaking in general terms when an individual or a group tries to make sense of another individual or group based upon preconceived intellectual or emotional biases which have been genetically, socially or culturally ingrained.

Some of these people, go to universities or institutes of higher learning to study human behaviour and get qualifications which basically say "my opinion is more educated than yours because I have a piece of paper which proves it" and the bias of society is to treat such academics as "knowing what they are talking about" because of that old adage "knowledge is power".

However, when one has an opinion on anything, academic or not, they will always be able to find a source of information which supports and correlates with their views and conclusions, just as much as information can also be found by those who have an opposing viewpoint to support their arguments and conclusions if they look hard enough....which usually is followed by the credibility of the author of any "source material" being brought into question to the total detriment of the argument itself.

Esteemed scientists who embrace metaphysics over physics are called "pseudoscientists" even though they may have the same credentials as their more empirical counterparts.

Practitioners of natural, holistic therapies are called "quacks" and "frauds" by their allopathic counterparts...and any positive outcome is attributed to the "placebo effect" however, any positive outcome is better than a negative one or no outcome whatsoever.

In light of this, if a spiritual experience is attained as the result of a mental illness, it would therefore result in "bring on the mental illness so that I may have a spiritual experience", because a manic experience is always going to be better than a depressive one if that's the only choice an individual has of actually being happy, positive, joyful and at peace with themselves and the world.

There is nothing wrong/bad about "running away" either and it is nothing to be ashamed of. You wouldn't stand around and let yourself be eaten by a tiger because "running away" is for cowards and we must stand and fight with pointy sticks. In the beginning, Spirituality may be seen as "bypassing" to avoid toxic people and situations that one can simply choose NOT to face simply due to the fact that under free will they are not forced to face it and prefer to turn their attention towards that which makes them happy, peaceful and comfortable inside themselves... however, after a short time, this becomes less and less of a "running away from" and more and more of a "running towards".

That being said, there are a few psychiatrists who acknowledge the role of Spiritual emergence/emergency in regards to misdiagnosed mental illness...this school of practice was started by Stanislav Grof and includes many shrinks now...in many different countries and one who would go to see these professionals wouldn't be given the stigma of being diagnosed with psychosis attributed to Schizophrenia...with the sudden onset of symptoms over a few months being the key indicator.

However, these pioneers in the field of Spiritual psychiatry are still seen as "rogues" by the more traditional whitecoats due to the whole "more of US vs less of THEM" philosophy and people feel much safer to express and extol an opinion whenever they had sheer numbers to back them up or whenever funding is an issue..many are unwilling to change their way of thinking until everyone else does FIRST so as not to lose any credibility among their peers...but for the select few, speaking their own truth regardless of condemnation is its own reward because they are being the change they wish to see in the world... even though it may never happen in their lifetime.

Human Beings are SO ethnically and culturally diverse that trying to pigeonhole them into an established psychiatric framework is very quickly becoming a fool's errand to those standards set when the population was much less...before the internet when humans weren't given the opportunity to express themselves to a wide audience and to whatever divisions of opinion arises whenever the topic of an individual's spiritual experience or preference arises for scrutiny by those who don't even know that person outside the arena of limited interaction, either within the professional setting or within a public fora such as this.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

My synopsis for your perusal:

Each of us has been raised with certain cognitive predispositions and biases which not only affects the way we choose to live our own lives, but they also affect the values and judgments we place upon others - whether or not it is true for the other, with reference to their own unique cognition and life experiences, which those who sit in judgment haven't personally experienced themselves.

I am not making reference to any individual here, on this forum or elsewhere...I am merely speaking in general terms when an individual or a group tries to make sense of another individual or group based upon preconceived intellectual or emotional biases which have been genetically, socially or culturally ingrained.

Some of these people, go to universities or institutes of higher learning to study human behaviour and get qualifications which basically say "my opinion is more educated than yours because I have a piece of paper which proves it" and the bias of society is to treat such academics as "knowing what they are talking about" because of that old adage "knowledge is power".

However, when one has an opinion on anything, academic or not, they will always be able to find a source of information which supports and correlates with their views and conclusions, just as much as information can also be found by those who have an opposing viewpoint to support their arguments and conclusions if they look hard enough....which usually is followed by the credibility of the author of any "source material" being brought into question to the total detriment of the argument itself.

Esteemed scientists who embrace metaphysics over physics are called "pseudoscientists" even though they may have the same credentials as their more empirical counterparts.

Practitioners of natural, holistic therapies are called "quacks" and "frauds" by their allopathic counterparts...and any positive outcome is attributed to the "placebo effect" however, any positive outcome is better than a negative one or no outcome whatsoever.

In light of this, if a spiritual experience is attained as the result of a mental illness, it would therefore result in "bring on the mental illness so that I may have a spiritual experience", because a manic experience is always going to be better than a depressive one if that's the only choice an individual has of actually being happy, positive, joyful and at peace with themselves and the world.

I have never had any qualms with this whatsoever, in fact my perspective has always been to understand the 'overlaps' between Spirituality and mental health issues in general. Thanks to a link posted previously I can begin top understand it from an objective and n on-biased perspective.

I do have an issue in that time and again people who have no real clue about mental health whatsoever, and indeed often have dismissed the whole field as not relevant to the Spiritual Adept and yet has blanket-psychoanalysed groups of people and blamed mental health issues on all kinds of weirdness. "Psuedo-psychologists" and other brain/mind disorder related experts abound in the forums sometimes, stemming from what is little more than opinion and is also often agenda.

As an example, I was asked by another member to talk to a member who was clearly troubled. Her background was that her mother and the mental health practitioners were trying to place her in a clinic for her own good, and she cam to the forums because she was running away from herself. She had been told by members that she was a medium because she was seeing shadow beings with red eyes. For those that are unaware, the beings represent a very troubled mind and the beings are a tactic by the subconscious to try and communicate with the conscious mind that something is badly wrong. It's akin to dream interpretations. I was given a link to the thread she was referring to and frankly, it was a horror story. Eventually she was persuaded to check into the clinic, and the last update I had was that she was still a little unsteady on her feet but she had been released and she had support mechanisms in place.

Sometimes a mental health issue is a mental health issue, sometimes a Spiritual experience is a Spiritual experience and sometimes it's a combination of the two. Being ignorant of which is which can be dangerous, and that includes giving so-called advice to to others that could severely affect their mental health. A Spiritual experience means that the person has had a subjective experience and whatever comes with that. A mental health issue means that something is wrong, and your mental health is part of the cognitive framework that creates your Spirituality and your subjective experience. Because regardless of how Spiritual someone decides to portray themselves as, their Spirituality is not dictated by Spirituality but by what's inside their skulls - whether it be wired correctly or not.

[quote=Shivani Devi]There is nothing wrong/bad about "running away" either and it is nothing to be ashamed of. You wouldn't stand around and let yourself be eaten by a tiger because "running away" is for cowards and we must stand and fight with pointy sticks. In the beginning, Spirituality may be seen as "bypassing" to avoid toxic people and situations that one can simply choose NOT to face simply due to the fact that under free will they are not forced to face it and prefer to turn their attention towards that which makes them happy, peaceful and comfortable inside themselves... however, after a short time, this becomes less and less of a "running away from" and more and more of a "running towards". [/quote[It depends on what you're running away from, and to clarify what I meant is that IMHO, people try to run away from themselves by turning to Spirituality and/or religion. You can't run away from what you have inside and thinking you can is often the beginning of a mental health issue.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

That being said, there are a few psychiatrists who acknowledge the role of Spiritual emergence/emergency in regards to misdiagnosed mental illness...this school of practice was started by Stanislav Grof and includes many shrinks now...in many different countries and one who would go to see these professionals wouldn't be given the stigma of being diagnosed with psychosis attributed to Schizophrenia...with the sudden onset of symptoms over a few months being the key indicator.

As I said earlier, I'm not ploughing through a lengthy, technobabble-ridden article on just this subject. As far as I'm concerned it validates what I've wondered all along, that there are links between Spirituality and (generally) mental health. I've already been through a cognitive behaviour therapy course and I'm scheduled for another round-up in the very near future. Personally, the CBT has helped me immensely because it's brought issues t the surface so I can deal with them more effectively, issues that I's buried so deep. I've also started a CBT Practioner's course not because I intend to practice but because I want to understand myself better from both the pespectives of mental health - being on the schizophrenia spectrum as it's called nowadays and having suffered childhood trauma - and being Spiritual.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

However, these pioneers in the field of Spiritual psychiatry are still seen as "rogues" by the more traditional whitecoats due to the whole "more of US vs less of THEM" philosophy and people feel much safer to express and extol an opinion whenever they had sheer numbers to back them up or whenever funding is an issue..many are unwilling to change their way of thinking until everyone else does FIRST so as not to lose any credibility among their peers...but for the select few, speaking their own truth regardless of condemnation is its own reward because they are being the change they wish to see in the world... even though it may never happen in their lifetime.

Human Beings are SO ethnically and culturally diverse that trying to pigeonhole them into an established psychiatric framework is very quickly becoming a fool's errand to those standards set when the population was much less...before the internet when humans weren't given the opportunity to express themselves to a wide audience and to whatever divisions of opinion arises whenever the topic of an individual's spiritual experience or preference arises for scrutiny by those who don't even know that person outside the arena of limited interaction, either within the professional setting or within a public fora such as this.

If you take a look at the forums you'll realise how irrational some of the arguments are, and it's no wonder there are few professionals who will go near the subject. whether that be from psychology, psychiatry or cognitive function. There are few scientists that will even think about consciousness never mind try to understand it. But surprisingly enough the Spiritual noggin is not a million miles away from a regular noggin, no matter how far apart Spiritual people have the propensity for projecting and reinforcing. That in itself is already explainable.

Every field of human endeavour that has evolved or is in the process of emergence has been or is subject to scepticism, 'us and them', being labelled as rogue..... That's human nature but the other side of that coin is that it can provide the drive for objectivity and measurement towards a wider acceptance. There has always been rogues and those that support the status quo and they are evident in these forums, so again that's simple human nature. Objectivity is good.

While there are those that will hold to an established psychiatric framework, it's still in the process of evolution because often it also relies on science for its limited diagnosis. It is limited because in every other profession the medical staff can actually look at an ailment. If you have a snotty nose or a problem with your innards it can be physically diagnosed. As far as that goes psychiatry is still in its infancy, and granted it's come a long way since asylums and electro-shock therapy.

Differences of opinion are going to happen, it's a forum and the whole point is to provide a platform for people to thrash it out, and in this forum hopefully that will include peaceful, respectful discussion. But not always. When tactics such as dismissal for the agenda of Spiritual superiority rears its ugly head, it can mean that there is an underlying 'flaw'. As does using sometimes irrational arguments to maintain an untenable position of Spiritual high ground. Not it's not a diagnosis but it's human nature to 'register' things like that is they are noticed. What comes next is down to the individual.

Expressing yourself is one thing but what becomes interesting is the "What?" and the "How?" Regardless, the expression is 'coloured' in some way and sometimes by experiences and traumas that go back to childhood. And regardless of how Spiritual we profess ourselves to be, good old human nature provides the frameworks. We still create impressions and mental images in an attempt to embody the words on the screen. It seems that the lack of understanding the person behind the words is no barrier to dismissal and worse, even if that's someone to point the finger at.

It's actually more interesting when you can see yourself from a Spiritual perspective, or a mental health perspective, or both.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by kishore

I have found that all the symptoms of schizophrenia match symptoms of spiritual awakening. So does both indirectly mean the same as per medical terms.

I don't think they are necessarily the same. I think of this as a spectrum, with people who have ''gone off'' being sensible to people who are totally sensible but also experience 'otherworldly' stuff. Not everyone is ''schizophrenic'' for experiencing spirituality, and not everyone who's into spirituality is ''schizophrenic''. The extreme cases might tell us more about it though, where people are afraid they're being followed all the time, but there's much in-between and it's impossible to call it all the same. It's like with fasting, a short fast is good but a long fast can lead to serious health decline.

I think psychological concepts are problematic, because we have to find agreements based on subjective phenomena, and who's to say we actually agree in the first place besides using similar words? Those very words will carry different weight depending on how we feel and in what context we exist at the moment. The same is true for personality tests and whatever experiences and examples pop up in your head when ticking a box. It will change with the moment and context. For example, I've done the Myers-Brigg test a number of times and I've got different results, at least three different types, and this all depend on how I feel. Only the IN.. remains stable for me, the rest depends on how I feel during the time and what examples pop up in my mind when ticking any box in the questionnaire. Many psychological diagnoses can go wrong, I think, because of this highly subjective understanding of our experiences and the whims of the mind.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by kishore

I have found that all the symptoms of schizophrenia match symptoms of spiritual awakening. So does both indirectly mean the same as per medical terms.

Answer as most members have wrote unequivocally is no . If certain health care professionals do venture into such conclusions it is merely their ignorance or selfishness . And not much credence be given to such heretical /commercially motivated conclusions.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I have never had any qualms with this whatsoever, in fact my perspective has always been to understand the 'overlaps' between Spirituality and mental health issues in general. Thanks to a link posted previously I can begin top understand it from an objective and n on-biased perspective.

I do have an issue in that time and again people who have no real clue about mental health whatsoever, and indeed often have dismissed the whole field as not relevant to the Spiritual Adept and yet has blanket-psychoanalysed groups of people and blamed mental health issues on all kinds of weirdness. "Psuedo-psychologists" and other brain/mind disorder related experts abound in the forums sometimes, stemming from what is little more than opinion and is also often agenda.

As an example, I was asked by another member to talk to a member who was clearly troubled. Her background was that her mother and the mental health practitioners were trying to place her in a clinic for her own good, and she cam to the forums because she was running away from herself. She had been told by members that she was a medium because she was seeing shadow beings with red eyes. For those that are unaware, the beings represent a very troubled mind and the beings are a tactic by the subconscious to try and communicate with the conscious mind that something is badly wrong. It's akin to dream interpretations. I was given a link to the thread she was referring to and frankly, it was a horror story. Eventually she was persuaded to check into the clinic, and the last update I had was that she was still a little unsteady on her feet but she had been released and she had support mechanisms in place.

Sometimes a mental health issue is a mental health issue, sometimes a Spiritual experience is a Spiritual experience and sometimes it's a combination of the two. Being ignorant of which is which can be dangerous, and that includes giving so-called advice to to others that could severely affect their mental health. A Spiritual experience means that the person has had a subjective experience and whatever comes with that. A mental health issue means that something is wrong, and your mental health is part of the cognitive framework that creates your Spirituality and your subjective experience. Because regardless of how Spiritual someone decides to portray themselves as, their Spirituality is not dictated by Spirituality but by what's inside their skulls - whether it be wired correctly or not.

It depends on what you're running away from, and to clarify what I meant is that IMHO, people try to run away from themselves by turning to Spirituality and/or religion. You can't run away from what you have inside and thinking you can is often the beginning of a mental health issue.

As I said earlier, I'm not ploughing through a lengthy, technobabble-ridden article on just this subject. As far as I'm concerned it validates what I've wondered all along, that there are links between Spirituality and (generally) mental health. I've already been through a cognitive behaviour therapy course and I'm scheduled for another round-up in the very near future. Personally, the CBT has helped me immensely because it's brought issues t the surface so I can deal with them more effectively, issues that I's buried so deep. I've also started a CBT Practioner's course not because I intend to practice but because I want to understand myself better from both the pespectives of mental health - being on the schizophrenia spectrum as it's called nowadays and having suffered childhood trauma - and being Spiritual.

If you take a look at the forums you'll realise how irrational some of the arguments are, and it's no wonder there are few professionals who will go near the subject. whether that be from psychology, psychiatry or cognitive function. There are few scientists that will even think about consciousness never mind try to understand it. But surprisingly enough the Spiritual noggin is not a million miles away from a regular noggin, no matter how far apart Spiritual people have the propensity for projecting and reinforcing. That in itself is already explainable.

Every field of human endeavour that has evolved or is in the process of emergence has been or is subject to scepticism, 'us and them', being labelled as rogue..... That's human nature but the other side of that coin is that it can provide the drive for objectivity and measurement towards a wider acceptance. There has always been rogues and those that support the status quo and they are evident in these forums, so again that's simple human nature. Objectivity is good.

While there are those that will hold to an established psychiatric framework, it's still in the process of evolution because often it also relies on science for its limited diagnosis. It is limited because in every other profession the medical staff can actually look at an ailment. If you have a snotty nose or a problem with your innards it can be physically diagnosed. As far as that goes psychiatry is still in its infancy, and granted it's come a long way since asylums and electro-shock therapy.

Differences of opinion are going to happen, it's a forum and the whole point is to provide a platform for people to thrash it out, and in this forum hopefully that will include peaceful, respectful discussion. But not always. When tactics such as dismissal for the agenda of Spiritual superiority rears its ugly head, it can mean that there is an underlying 'flaw'. As does using sometimes irrational arguments to maintain an untenable position of Spiritual high ground. Not it's not a diagnosis but it's human nature to 'register' things like that is they are noticed. What comes next is down to the individual.

Expressing yourself is one thing but what becomes interesting is the "What?" and the "How?" Regardless, the expression is 'coloured' in some way and sometimes by experiences and traumas that go back to childhood. And regardless of how Spiritual we profess ourselves to be, good old human nature provides the frameworks. We still create impressions and mental images in an attempt to embody the words on the screen. It seems that the lack of understanding the person behind the words is no barrier to dismissal and worse, even if that's someone to point the finger at.

It's actually more interesting when you can see yourself from a Spiritual perspective, or a mental health perspective, or both.

Thank you for your indepth reply, which will take time for me to fully address.

For now, I cannot help but wonder about those things which many others label as being "human nature".

When does the reference made to the behavior of a species become a well-worn excuse not to challenge that behavior or the status quo through CBT, Spirituality or any cognitive intervention, clinical or otherwise?

I just notice that whenever I challenge a behaviour, many times I will be told that it is only "human nature" which makes things as they are...this includes competition, greed, conformity, bandwagoning, judgmentalism, intolerance, materialism, bi-partisanship, having a selfish agenda....the list of traits which human beings attribute to themselves as a species and which they use to define themselves to justify certain behaviours goes on and on.

But I ask you...what of those who do not possess any of those traits others continually attest as being mandatory to be part of the human species according to "human nature"?

Can those who do not have any of these attitudes and behaviours others attribute to "human nature" still be human? If they do not have these things, what are they? A different type of human? dead? divine? without any labels? What exactly?

I have been wondering this for quite some time now (basically since birth)...where can I be "pigeonholed"...or would they need to create a new pigeonhole just for me?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by kishore

I have found that all the symptoms of schizophrenia match symptoms of spiritual awakening. So does both indirectly mean the same as per medical terms.

I notice that you clarify this later by saying "i mean the negative aspects or side effects of spiritual awakening and symptoms of schizophrenia are pretty much same" but you still haven't said exactly what negative aspects of spiritual awakening and symptoms of schizophrenia you mean (unless I have missed it).

I suspect that many people experience some kind of spiritual awakening with no issues related to schizophrenia, and on the other hand many people experience problems with schizophrenia with no spiritual aspects at all. There may be an area of overlap where the two groups intersect, but how large that overlap is I have no idea.

For me personally, spiritual awakening has nothing to do with schizophrenia.

Peace

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Thank you for your indepth reply, which will take time for me to fully address.

For now, I cannot help but wonder about those things which many others label as being "human nature".

When does the reference made to the behavior of a species become a well-worn excuse not to challenge that behavior or the status quo through CBT, Spirituality or any cognitive intervention, clinical or otherwise?

I just notice that whenever I challenge a behaviour, many times I will be told that it is only "human nature" which makes things as they are...this includes competition, greed, conformity, bandwagoning, judgmentalism, intolerance, materialism, bi-partisanship, having a selfish agenda....the list of traits which human beings attribute to themselves as a species and which they use to define themselves to justify certain behaviours goes on and on.

But I ask you...what of those who do not possess any of those traits others continually attest as being mandatory to be part of the human species according to "human nature"?

Can those who do not have any of these attitudes and behaviours others attribute to "human nature" still be human? If they do not have these things, what are they? A different type of human? dead? divine? without any labels? What exactly?

I have been wondering this for quite some time now (basically since birth)...where can I be "pigeonholed"...or would they need to create a new pigeonhole just for me?

You're very welcome.
There are certain traits that have been with us since we've climbed out of the trees, one of those traits being the need to collect together for the sake of survival. Often those traits are inherent in our nature today, and perhaps you "needing to find your tribe" is an expression of the need to collect with others of your tribe/kind. No I'm not trying to psychoanalyse you I'm just trying to give you examples that will make sense to you, and it's something that makes sense to me because I can empathise. But anyway... The human nature is the feeling that people need to band together, including Spiritual people who feel the need to find other Spiritual people. Within that there are rules of etiquette and behaviour for acting within the context of the group - the forum is a 'collection' of like-minded people and the attraction is other Spiritual people..... and so on, the same 'rules' apply to Spiritual people as they had with hunter-gatherers.

As in a group of hunter-gatherers, or the forums or society in general there are behavioural rules that have have evolved as the individual evolves to become of a group then a part of society at large. With some people playing nice is their individual nature, with others not so much. The rules are there because not everyone's natures are compatible with the group. What you're describing there is probably better understood as not "human nature" but as "their nature as a human". While it's in their nature to play nice, for some people it's also in their nature to rebel against the rules and for others to display any of the behaviour traits you've listed. What helps here is to make the distinct between the behaviour traits that all humans have and which traits the individual has. Justifying unacceptable behaviour is not a human trait, not everybody has actions they need to justify and not everybody will justify them, there are those that have behaved unacceptably and will try to change. The need for justification comes from people who think they are right regardless although that's not a trait but a personality disorder.

Your list of traits are not either human or personal natures, nor traits, they stem from the personality disorders that CBT attempts to address. As to those that attest to them being part of human nature, choose one or more from a a whole raft of reasons. Initially apathy perhaps, having given up trying to understand......


But I ask you, who said that it was mandatory to have those traits to be human? Is that your perception or did some actually state that having those so-called traits was mandatory to being human? Or are others simply passing off those so-called traits as being human nature because they really can't be bothered to look anywhere other than at what's immediately in front of them? Do you?

What about competition? What are the reasons you challenge competition?

Competition is a remnant of the survival mechanism and surprisingly enough the survival instinct is still alive and kicking, and although Spiritual people talk about how we are eternal Spirit and all the rest of it Spirituality can be a manifestation of our survival instincts. Competition is one of the things that has come from our need to survive and has driven evolution and technology - and the ability to create flint arrowheads is a technology. Competition drove the need to be better at making arrowheads than the other guy and hunting became more efficient. How it manifests today depends on the individual but to understand it you'd need to understand the person's reasons - what do they get out of it? It is human nature that people don't do anything for no reason. Pavlov's Dogs and Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs apply.

You can go through your list item by item and each of the items will have its own 'background' if you like, and all of them are made of the stuff CBT seeks to address - even the perception of them being mandatory human traits.

You said yourself that there are those that will seek to run away from a pointy stick that they're being stabbed with, for many this is how they run away from the 'pointy stick' which is their experiences, perceptions, reactions to their perceptions...... so on. And in that context Spirituality can be seen as a 'running away'. It's human nature to run away from what we don't like or what we perceive of as a threat to our survival.

It's been said that religion is for those that are afraid of going to hell and Spirituality is for those that have been there. For my own part that's very true because I've been looking for Spiritual answers to my own experiences - but Spirituality as in Haile Selassie's definition of being a connection to ourselves and other people, or the more catch-all definition of Spirituality being metaphysical or beyond the five senses. In part Spirituality has given me so many answers but someone keeps moving the goalposts. What is also giving me answers is going through my second round-up of CBT sessions, because I'm self-aware enough to realise that what CBT seeks to address have played their own parts in making me 'me'. This current round-up is very interesting because now I have a mental health practitioner that I can talk about Spirituality with, and my own perceptions of not the ideologies and theologies that some define Spirituality as, but the existential experiences.

So from a very Spiritual perception I can't help but be totally amazed at the synchronicities that are playing out here. Or is that karma, and if it does what does that mean?

Many years ago I read a book called "Stranger in a Strange Land." It has the wrong label for discussion in there because it's sci-fi, but it was the first time I experienced something that resonated with me. The story is about a human boy that was brought up by indigenous Martians, and the Martians had a very different culture. Think of Spirituality versus 'mundane'. The main character was then integrated back into human society and befriended, and the rest of the book was that story. The main character was dying and his wish was that his friends made a soup out of him so they could 'grok' him. Yep, that's where the word comes from. There was the obvious human sensibilities of making that soup but they did, and they 'grokked'.

I felt like that, I felt like a stranger in a strange land. I didn't fit in, I couldn't relate to all that human stuff like making friends. People couldn't accept me because they couldn't understand me. But the problem was me not them, because I didn't understand me. It wasn't until I joined a forum that I came across people who could actually make sense of what was going on in my head. There were others who felt the same, who could relate and understand what came spilling out. I was told that I was an Old Soul and that often Old Souls don't integrate into this plane of existence, and that explained everything.

Long story short, I'm OK being the weirdo because it's fun, and because I accept myself the people around me accept me too. Those that Love you understand, those that don't Love you don't understand, kinda thing. I have a small pouch of marbles I carry with me everywhere that my colleagues pass off as "That's Ron being Ron" and I've given a few of them a pouch of marbles too. Now they grok me. When the kid in the puddle is being chastised I'm straight in the puddle alongside the kid. Well, people are taught to respect their elders and sometimes they're shocked, but either way it's permission from the kid's perspective.

I am the pigeon-hole and while some people can't quite come to terms with it, others wish they could be like me. Either way, I accept myself as I am - warts and all and I don't look to Spirituality for an 'alternate me'. I'm also either a lesson for others. or a reflection of the kind of person they would like to be, devoid of the perceptual stigma.

You don't need to fall into place with the rest of the Universe, when you fall into place with yourself and come into harmony - when you become comfortable in your own skin - with yourself the Universe falls into line with you. You are an Old Soul, SD, and I'm not saying that so you can label or pigeon-hole yourself, I'm saying that as being a way to understand yourself a little better. You simply don't resonate at this level of existence, you many and yourself you're a stranger in a strange land. Like so many others that feel the very same way, and there's a few on this forum.

When you start 'dismantling' your perceptual need for a pigeon-hole your own Light will become emergent. And yes we have talked about this before but your Light is not your knowledge - as extensive as it may be - it's your bushel.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Answer as most members have wrote unequivocally is no . If certain health care professionals do venture into such conclusions it is merely their ignorance or selfishness . And not much credence be given to such heretical /commercially motivated conclusions.

Go read this, but be aware that it is very heavily laden with clinical technobabble.

Originally Posted by green1

You may find this article interesting:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...53810016301088

If you don't read it then perhaps you need to be asking yourself some questions.

One of the most impenetrable barriers to understanding mental health is stigma, and frankly posts like these don't help. It only serves to perpetuate the darkness and ignorance, and if someone who thinks they may have a mental health is reading this then it only reinforces their worst fears. And as a very Spiritual person you are of course aware that the only reality your words reflect is your own.

Where do you think your Spirituality comes from? When you read a book, watch as YouTube or read a post for instance, there are signals coming from the eye to the brain. That's how eyes work. The chances are that you now have a belief about me and it's probably not that I'm your bestie, so what happens between you seeing this post - the electrical signals - and your belief? Spiritual technobabble is non-contextual, by the way.