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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > General Religion

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  #71  
Old 11-01-2020, 09:58 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
India had major changes over the centuries and millennia, as did Greece, Egypt, Rome. See influences and impact of Upanishad period, Islamic conquests, Christianity and colonialism, the modern age. The people of pre-Upanishad period ate cows and worshipped Agni, not Krishna for example. India has been in flux like any other civilization. The ancient Indus civilization had cities that are no longer inhabited, same with some old places in Egypt and Iraq.

India has had minor changes but not in a major way. The civilization still exists with milleniums old traditions like Kumbha Mela and Shiva worship still standing unlike the Egyptian, Assyrian and others.

Agni is worshipped in Vedic chants even now in yajnas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
That's his belief. I don't see anything to suggest ''everything has come'' from India. This is like saying every peoples on the planet came from the biblical tribes of Israel.

Voltaire comes from a period in Europe where it was a common stereotype among philosophers to see Europe as a place of savagery pre-Enlightenment.

Many philosophers like Schopenhauer, Hegel, Nietzche, Durant, Emerson, Thoreau, Alfred North Whitehead, Aldous Huxley in recent times have also echoed similar views.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Ancient Rome was also very rich, but... only for the upper class.
India's (current) poverty isn't the fault of ''the West''.If it would be than why participate in global trade and accept medicine?

India has had participated in global trade in ancient times as well, and roman coins and stuff were found in ancient trading centres in India. Similarly with Indian coins and trade articles being found in faraway countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-R...rade_relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_maritime_history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus-...amia_relations


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
If it would be than why participate in global trade and accept medicine? Maybe it has and had more to do with it being a class-based society that tells its poor that they are poor due to past life karma. India doesn't have to participate in global trade, science and medicine, and develop its economy, it's a choice. It seems it wants to though, shed the old and embrace the new.

India has its own medical systems like Ayurveda, Siddha, Unani, Yoga and herbal medicine. Along with it it has embraced novel methods of medicine like allopathy and homeopathy in recent times and contributed to these streams as well. The people thus have access to all forms of medical systems at present.

I have met people who were healed by Ayurveda after exhausting all that allopathy had to offer.

Brad Willis is an American journalist who was inflicted with a severe back injury and cancer which disrupted his flourishing career and allopathic medicine seemed unable to heal him.

He has creditted Ayurveda and yoga for curing his cancer and back problems and is now a certified Ayurveda and Yoga Educator himself. He leads trainings and retreats in the U.S. and internationally, plus lectures and provides keynote speeches to medical schools, executive groups, and holistic health practitioners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Willis_(journalist)
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  #72  
Old 11-01-2020, 10:18 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
India has had minor changes but not in a major way. The civilization still exists with milleniums old traditions like Kumbha Mela and Shiva worship still standing unlike the Egyptian, Assyrian and others.
Some parts still exist, other parts don't. Ancient Indians had no taboo on eating cows. Indian religion has changed over the course of thousands of years. Buddhism and Upanishad period had a major impact. Today's people may pick and choose from different periods and religions, which is a credit to the polytheistic character of the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
Many philosophers like Schopenhauer, Hegel, Nietzche, Durant, Emerson, Thoreau, Alfred North Whitehead, Aldous Huxley in recent times have also echoed similar views.
This gives weight to... what exactly?
It seems with the Voltaire quote you seem to imply that ''all came from India'', which reads more like modern Hindu exceptionalism to me than anything supported by actual history and DNA. Some modern Hindus, in the globalist competitive context, present their religion and country as THE origins of all human life and civilization. Some Indian guru's have done this in the 60s/70s, such as Praphupada, as well as other Vaishnavists through books and YouTube. Abrahamic monotheists during colonial times performed not the same methods but the same sort of arguments.

I would argue that Hindu exceptionalism is a modern strategy, a means to compete in a globalizing world, and is strikingly similar to arguments made by colonial Christians.
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  #73  
Old 11-01-2020, 10:40 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Some parts still exist, other parts don't. Ancient Indians had no taboo on eating cows. .

Hindu saints in recent times like Swami Vivekananda too ate beef as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Indian religion has changed over the course of thousands of years. Buddhism and Upanishad period had a major impact. Today's people may pick and choose from different periods and religions, which is a credit to the polytheistic character of the country..

Ancient sects like the Shaivites, Vaishnavites, Shaktas, and the vedic religion mostly remain unchanged and they are what they were milleniums back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
This gives weight to... what exactly?

To Voltaire's viewpoint that it does not behove people of the west to dispute the contribution of Indian civilization to world culture and civilization.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

It seems with the Voltaire quote you seem to imply that ''all came from India'', which reads more like modern Hindu exceptionalism to me than anything supported by actual history and DNA. Some modern Hindus, in the globalist competitive context, present their religion and country as THE origins of all human life and civilization. Some Indian guru's have done this in the 60s/70s, such as Praphupada, as well as other Vaishnavists through books and YouTube. Abrahamic monotheists during colonial times performed not the same methods but the same sort of arguments.

I don't agree with Prabhupada's Vaishnavites views generally as he is also against Advaita or the nondualist philosophy and favours dualism.

But I must say that the Vaishnavites never indulged in inquistions, crusades and Jihads and forcibly converted nonadherents to Vaishnavism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I would argue that Hindu exceptionalism is a modern strategy, a means to compete in a globalizing world, and is strikingly similar to arguments made by colonial Christians.

I have stated earlier of the enlightened master Kabir's teaching of critical examination to sift the true from the false.

People will say this and that, and some may even state that the Indian civiliization is of extraterrestrial origin and are aliens from an another planet.

Through employing the faculty of reason and critical thinking, one can navigate ahead of false claims and adhere to the truth.
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  #74  
Old 11-01-2020, 11:48 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
Hindu saints in recent times like Swami Vivekananda too ate beef as well.
Didn't know that. Was it legal back then, did he eat it outside of India, or did he have buffalo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
Ancient sects like the Shaivites, Vaishnavites, Shaktas, and the vedic religion mostly remain unchanged and they are what they were milleniums back.
In all fairness, I think that's a wild claim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hinduism
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
To Voltaire's viewpoint that it does not behove people of the west to dispute the contribution of Indian civilization to world culture and civilization.
Ancient civ's of Europe and India and China were relatively unconnected, for the most part. There was trade from Europe to Asia but Europe has not have any Indian culture coming our way. I don't really see how the Voltaire quote demonstrates the reverse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
But I must say that the Vaishnavites never indulged in inquistions, crusades and Jihads and forcibly converted nonadherents to Vaishnavism.
No, but they use the same kind of arguments as colonial Christians. They interpret other religions and myths according to Hindu doctrine, just as Christians did according to Biblical doctrine. When the Christian thinks native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel, there will be Hindus imagining that everyone worshipped cows and Krishna, and were ''vedic''. Both religions try to demonstrate themselves as the origin of all civilization, with the true divine language and right view on the heavens.

Religions compete for dominance. It does not have to include swords and crusades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
Through employing the faculty of reason and critical thinking, one can navigate ahead of false claims and adhere to the truth.
Yep. :-)
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  #75  
Old 11-01-2020, 04:42 PM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivatar
I don't think you are angry. I think you are envious.

Good points
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  #76  
Old 12-01-2020, 01:24 PM
meetjazz meetjazz is offline
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It certainly is that the ''western'' hinduism brought a lot of nonsense, which today skillfully marketed, same as selling bread. This is probably a good description of most modern spirituality, not only Hinduism, where it is seems to be crucial to avoid any relevant topics, all the fundamental teachings...that goes against egoism, materialism and so on. I mean if we look modern Christianity, what would Jesus buy for Christmas? It's simply insane what is today presented under Christian umbrella. This is our Zeitgeist of today, the spirit of the times. Otherwise, Hinduism has brought enormous incredible insights, understanding of oneself...the only key reason why Christianity never blossomed in India was, that Jesus was ''nothing special'' there in terms of uniqueness. I mean, people will say there to you, if you say ''you saw Jesus,.'' fine, fine...my neighbor had experience with Vishnu, other will say, I have a cousin which is in contact with Ganesha, the waitress in a bar will tell you about her experience with Lakshmi, while someone on the street will talk about Kāli and so on. It is this acceptance of divine diversity in all shapes and forms and practices with which Western religions had lot of problems, and to this day you might hear people talk about Jesus in a intrusive way. Of course, some Hindus, BUddhist....can do the same thing. Even here in forum, if you pay attention, you will notice that people will always promote their own beliefs...same as I do..the difference is, of course, that some are aware that consideration and acceptance of different views and beliefs is crucial to view others with respect, dignity and equality. This intrusion of personal beliefs or the presentation of personal beliefs as a fundamental reality that everyone else must follow, come in all shapes and forms. We can take for an example militant atheism, how intrusive they are with ''you are a machine, nature is mechanical...'' and they will, like all blinded people of their own beliefs consider you as a heretic, fool, a lost soul...that need help to see the real truth.
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  #77  
Old 13-01-2020, 05:09 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Didn't know that. Was it legal back then, did he eat it outside of India, or did he have buffalo?

He has eaten beef and me too in nonvegetarian shops and home. I am a vegetarian now for spiritual reasons, ethical concerns for animals/birds, and environmental issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Ancient civ's of Europe and India and China were relatively unconnected, for the most part. There was trade from Europe to Asia but Europe has not have any Indian culture coming our way. I don't really see how the Voltaire quote demonstrates the reverse.

You have not done any noteworthy research and now expect me to do all the hard work.

European languages themselves have been found to be linguistically connected to Sanskrit.

scholars have noted the similarities between Plato's philosophy and Indian philosophies. Pythagoras believed in reincarnation and was a vegetarian himself.

The Shivalingams were found in rome too and is exhibited in Gregorian Etruscan Museum Vatican City.This has the most important Etruscan collection in Rome, starting with early Iron Age objects from the 9th century BC.

I have also noted the similarities between the Orphic Egg of Greek tradition and the Shivalingam of Hinduism...

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=129007


Most of India's connections were with Greece and Rome because they were the only civilizations in Europe at those times with the rest in a undeveloped, barbaric state. So obviously it is Rome and Greece that had historical,cultural and tradiing links with India then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

No, but they use the same kind of arguments as colonial Christians. They interpret other religions and myths according to Hindu doctrine, just as Christians did according to Biblical doctrine. When the Christian thinks native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel, there will be Hindus imagining that everyone worshipped cows and Krishna, and were ''vedic''. Both religions try to demonstrate themselves as the origin of all civilization, with the true divine language and right view on the heavens.

Religions compete for dominance. It does not have to include swords and crusades.


Yep. :-)

I never believed that everyone worshipped cows and Krishna and ISKCON is a twentieth century phenomenon. If some state such nonsensical stuff it means their imagination is getting the better of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
They interpret other religions and myths according to Hindu doctrine...

Ramakrishna and Shirdi Sai Baba, who are considered as Avatars, did state that all religions including Christianity and Islam spring from the same source and are paths to the Divine, and were critical of any conflicts in this regard.

Some religions may find this to be intrusive on their theological doctrines , but that is their problem, not ours.
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  #78  
Old 13-01-2020, 09:44 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Originally Posted by ajay00
You have not done any noteworthy research and now expect me to do all the hard work.
European languages themselves have been found to be linguistically connected to Sanskrit.
It is believed they have their origins in Central Asia, not Sanskrit being the origins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
scholars have noted the similarities between Plato's philosophy and Indian philosophies. Pythagoras believed in reincarnation and was a vegetarian himself.
Yes, some believed in reincarnation although it's not very elaborate.
I recall Pythagoras' vegetarianism is a matter of debate. Apparently he also excluded beans, and without meat and beans where to get protein from? Nuts only? Some say he was even a vegan, which would exclude dairy also. I'm not sure whether he was all that strict!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
The Shivalingams were found in rome too and is exhibited in Gregorian Etruscan Museum Vatican City.This has the most important Etruscan collection in Rome, starting with early Iron Age objects from the 9th century BC.
I haven't found any credible source to support this. 9th century Rome had no contact with India, neither is it likely that 9th century Greece did. How do you know it's from that period and how do you know there was direct trade and contact pre-Alexander?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
I never believed that everyone worshipped cows and Krishna and ISKCON is a twentieth century phenomenon. If some state such nonsensical stuff it means their imagination is getting the better of them.
Sadly they have quite an impact I'm afraid. There are a number of well known 'researchers' that are big names in alternative circles. I honestly don't even want to mention them here. The stuff they say is on the level of elongated skulls being 'proof' of aliens, and native Americans being a lost tribe of Israel. Alternative 'history' and 'archaeology' do their own cause a lot of harm imo.
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  #79  
Old 13-01-2020, 11:07 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
It is believed they have their origins in Central Asia, not Sanskrit being the origins..

They have not found any such language as of now, and most research is based on the sanskrit language now as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Yes, some believed in reincarnation although it's not very elaborate.
I recall Pythagoras' vegetarianism is a matter of debate. Apparently he also excluded beans, and without meat and beans where to get protein from? Nuts only? Some say he was even a vegan, which would exclude dairy also. I'm not sure whether he was all that strict!

The point being made here is the philosophical similarities and cultural interactions between the Indians and Greeks which continued during the time of Alexander in the fourth century B.C.

Many Greeks in Alexanders time had themselves converted to Buddhism then.

Menander (165/155 130 BC) , a Greek king was a convert to Buddhism and is famous for his dialogues with the buddhist master Nagasena. He is considered as a great benefactor to the Buddhist faith on par with Ashoka the Great.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_religions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I haven't found any credible source to support this. 9th century Rome had no contact with India, neither is it likely that 9th century Greece did. How do you know it's from that period and how do you know there was direct trade and contact pre-Alexander?

It is hard to verify that India had no contact with rome and greece even at that time with new archaeological discoveries cropping up all the time now.

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/knowl...ecent-findings

Anyway I have only stated here that the Etruscan museum collection in Rome starts with early Iron Age objects from the 9th century BC, not that the relationship between India and Rome/Greece started in 9th century b.c.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

Sadly they have quite an impact I'm afraid. There are a number of well known 'researchers' that are big names in alternative circles. I honestly don't even want to mention them here. The stuff they say is on the level of elongated skulls being 'proof' of aliens, and native Americans being a lost tribe of Israel. Alternative 'history' and 'archaeology' do their own cause a lot of harm imo.

Well, I have never heard of them or such theories till now.
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  #80  
Old 14-01-2020, 05:39 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
You have not done any noteworthy research and now expect me to do all the hard work.

Just a friendly warning that it might be a waste too

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...=133306&page=3

Jl
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