Questionable spirituality

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hi
I really try to understand some ideas about spirituality but I stumble upon my rational thinking, as spirituality is not a fact, but a set of beliefs.

Having faith doesen't guarantee that something will happen. How can someone distinguish between wishful thinking, hallucinations and genuine experiences? Is what we've been told just a fairy tale by the elders that could not explain experiences? (like believing in Santa Claus). Are spiritual people just delusional or charlatans? Sort of weird to believe in something that lacks proof.

Furthermore, I can't understand why some people say that we chose how our life will play out, or experiencing karma. I can't remember this, and if I would go to a hypnotherapist it might be hallucinations. It doesen't make any sense to suffer in order to promote ascension or whatever, imho, just some excuses I guess. For example, why would someone choose beforehand coming here to suffer by being punched in the face on the street, to experience what, nose bleeding and being angry?

As far as I know Spirits kept informing us on this "love is important" concept but nothing more. Well, we know that love is important, but they don't seem to help with anything else, other than that.

Nobody dead enough came back to tell us how it is on the "other side". I've been waiting for the moment science will reveal this for decades, yet am just disappointed, since all we have is wishful thinking, as atheism materialism and physicalism still stand as they will say that after death it will be like before birth/being conceived/unconscious. Where does the energy go when the computer is shut down?

Lastly, how is the physical binded to the spiritual? How is memory and consciousness non-local if not in the brain? How can spirits see without eyes? We always hear medics saying that a person went unconscious, or being unaware during a surgery

Thanks in advance.

The question of reality is more of perspectives / interests and orientations .
e.g .One see tall mountains like Himalayas or deep ocean creek on earth surface , and avers that earth is anything but round . Arithmetically he is right and nobody can question his rationality. One can not have bumps or dents on round surface. However when he moves away from earth and looks at the earth from space , he will realize that the earth is really round and the Himalayas which he was talking about is a mere dot on earth .

So I agree with all your arguments and rationales from the perspectives / interests /orientation you may have. But when I zoom out away from individual perspectives and try to see universal fact , I disagree with you and can only say Spirituality is a fact and it really exists.

Now I stop here because these are endless discussions of not much use either to you or to me unless one really experiences it in life .

[freebird]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

So I agree with all your arguments and rationales from the perspectives / interests /orientation you may have. But when I zoom out away from individual perspectives and try to see universal fact , I disagree with you and can only say Spirituality is a fact and it really exists.

Thanks. But where is the proof?

[inavalan]

"Facts" ... people use this word for things they believe to be unquestionable, but the crux of the matter here is "they believe".

Think about this: when you're dreaming, you believe that whatever is and happens are facts ... Then, when you wake up you believe different.

We always access a subjective reality.

One error, most of us make, is believing some objective external force does anything to us. So we get upset, frustrated, with what is done to us, and expect hopeful or anxious for a future that will be inflicted on us.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by freebird

I agree, but remember there are times when people stumble upon Facts. If someone says that if he/she jumps into a freezing cold lake their body temperature will be the same as that is his/her belief. Well, guess what, their body temperature will drop regardless of their belief. One is fact and the other is fiction. At the moment this is how I perceive it, maybe it's just my perception, but I see science as mocking spirituality, as all they got is merely beliefs, whereas science has facts and proof. Similar to atheists and physicalists mocking theists.

This is what differentiates facts from fiction as certain phenomena will happen regardless of someone's beliefs.

Verily, there are three types of "truths".

There is the objective, measurable truth based upon the Laws of Physics which applies to everyone living on this physical planet... most rationalists and empiricists will take this path only to the exclusion of everything else, saying; "unless Science can quantify it and prove to me that it exists, it just does NOT exist"....they must be totally beside themselves when it comes to Dark Matter. =)

People who require conclusive proof of subjective, personal experiences which have no basis in objective fact in this 3D material universe cannot and I repeat, cannot even begin to grasp what Spirituality is, because there is no "one size fits all" application for it which can be studied, measured, quantified and brought into an arena where it applies to everyone across the board in the same way that "freezing water will lower ones body temperature" does....with the whole "spirituality" of that objective truth being in the domain and philosophy of one Wim Hof. =)

The second type of "truth" is a subjective, personal truth resulting from conditioned experience which cannot be replicated at will to comply with the foundations of scientific methodology. Thus, you will find that those who base their philosophy and lives around the first type of truth just cannot accept the second type...they will rationalise EVERYTHING to fit in with the notion of an ordered, 3D, scientific Universe...."that was NOT a UFO I just saw...it was just a giant drone, flying at night time, which could link up with other drones to become an even bigger drone before flying off at about 1000kms an hour because that's what drones DO"...reading explanations provided by skeptics is an endless source of amusement for me..may I say, reductio ad absurdum infinitum?

The third type of truth goes beyond the above two..it is the Ultimate Truth which is also experiential, but one pretty much needs to be Enlightened to realise it, so the less that is said about Brahman, the better.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by freebird

It was a saying that science builds airplanes, and religion makes them crash into buildings.

Science builds airplanes and two mentally deranged fanatics from ONE religion makes them crash into buildings.

Science also makes guns and people who are not necessarily religious makes them kill people.

What you are referring to...what this whole thread is referring to is cognitive dissonance.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/cog...issonance.html

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Verily, there are three types of "truths".

There is the objective, measurable truth based upon the Laws of Physics which applies to everyone living on this physical planet... most rationalists and empiricists will take this path only to the exclusion of everything else, saying; "unless Science can quantify it and prove to me that it exists, it just does NOT exist"....they must be totally beside themselves when it comes to Dark Matter. =)

This sounds a lot like Stephen Hawking, Peter Atkins, Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

People who require conclusive proof of subjective, personal experiences which have no basis in objective fact in this 3D material universe cannot and I repeat, cannot even begin to grasp what Spirituality is, because there is no "one size fits all" application for it which can be studied, measured, quantified and brought into an arena where it applies to everyone across the board in the same way that "freezing water will lower ones body temperature" does....with the whole "spirituality" of that objective truth being in the domain and philosophy of one Wim Hof. =)

The second type of "truth" is a subjective, personal truth resulting from conditioned experience which cannot be replicated at will to comply with the foundations of scientific methodology. Thus, you will find that those who base their philosophy and lives around the first type of truth just cannot accept the second type...they will rationalise EVERYTHING to fit in with the notion of an ordered, 3D, scientific Universe...."that was NOT a UFO I just saw...it was just a giant drone, flying at night time, which could link up with other drones to become an even bigger drone before flying off at about 1000kms an hour because that's what drones DO"...reading explanations provided by skeptics is an endless source of amusement for me..may I say, reductio ad absurdum infinitum?

But how do you know that it was "truth" and not a hallucination? How do you know that subjective proof is fact?

Most "rational materialists, physicalists that use reductionism" will say that after death will be like before birth, a.k.a "nothingness" - That there is no need for spirituality as science can explain with proof

Whenever someone speaks about spirituality most of the "rational people" regard that person as mentally ill such as schizophrenic

Will science ever accept spirituality as "truth"? I guess they did experiments on remote viewing but claim they were just hoax.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The third type of truth goes beyond the above two..it is the Ultimate Truth which is also experiential, but one pretty much needs to be Enlightened to realise it, so the less that is said about Brahman, the better.

This type of truth sounds like natural laws.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hi
I really try to understand some ideas about spirituality but I stumble upon my rational thinking, as spirituality is not a fact, but a set of beliefs.

Having faith doesen't guarantee that something will happen. How can someone distinguish between wishful thinking, hallucinations and genuine experiences? Is what we've been told just a fairy tale by the elders that could not explain experiences? (like believing in Santa Claus). Are spiritual people just delusional or charlatans? Sort of weird to believe in something that lacks proof.

Furthermore, I can't understand why some people say that we chose how our life will play out, or experiencing karma. I can't remember this, and if I would go to a hypnotherapist it might be hallucinations. It doesen't make any sense to suffer in order to promote ascension or whatever, imho, just some excuses I guess. For example, why would someone choose beforehand coming here to suffer by being punched in the face on the street, to experience what, nose bleeding and being angry?

As far as I know Spirits kept informing us on this "love is important" concept but nothing more. Well, we know that love is important, but they don't seem to help with anything else, other than that.

Nobody dead enough came back to tell us how it is on the "other side". I've been waiting for the moment science will reveal this for decades, yet am just disappointed, since all we have is wishful thinking, as atheism materialism and physicalism still stand as they will say that after death it will be like before birth/being conceived/unconscious. Where does the energy go when the computer is shut down?

Lastly, how is the physical binded to the spiritual? How is memory and consciousness non-local if not in the brain? How can spirits see without eyes? We always hear medics saying that a person went unconscious, or being unaware during a surgery

Thanks in advance.

In my 'new book' spirituality has nothing to do with religion nor with any god.
It (the condition we call spirituality) is a part of the natural world and part of the conscious universe.

Natural laws are valid everywhere and for everything, we have to get away from a belief in a divine presence.

We are all in a constant state of feedback with the whole, mainly through our five senses - senses which we constantly underestimate.

Originally Posted by freebird

I really try to understand some ideas about spirituality but I stumble upon my rational thinking, as spirituality is not a fact, but a set of beliefs.

Spirituality is not rational even though many would say that they have applied rational thought and logic. Often Spiritual people only look for Spiritual answers, but the frameworks of Spirituality are built with what's inside their (yes, mine too) skulls and few seem to venture there. That kind of darkness is a scary place. Did you know that you're predisposed to be Spiritual due to genetics, for instance?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by freebird

This sounds a lot like Stephen Hawking, Peter Atkins, Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens


But how do you know that it was "truth" and not a hallucination? How do you know that subjective proof is fact?

Most "rational materialists, physicalists that use reductionism" will say that after death will be like before birth, a.k.a "nothingness" - That there is no need for spirituality as science can explain with proof

Whenever someone speaks about spirituality most of the "rational people" regard that person as mentally ill such as schizophrenic

Will science ever accept spirituality as "truth"? I guess they did experiments on remote viewing but claim they were just hoax.


This type of truth sounds like natural laws.

Do all of those "rational people" have a degree in psychiatry to be able to make such a diagnosis? Because that is how I look at it.

Having said that, I have been diagnosed with Schizoaffective Disorder, Schizotypal Personality Disorder but NOT Schizophrenia..they are all only LABELS anyway! I also have Avoidant Personality Disorder, Asperger's Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Conduct Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

....and NONE of those diagnoses were based on me "hearing things" or "seeing things" or having religious convictions.

They were based on the fact that I am a total non-conformist who prefers to find my OWN answers than to just follow the herd...NOT to blindly believe what I am being told by the mass media without questioning it and to reach my own understandings and conclusions instead of just taking another's "word for it" no matter HOW educated they may be...it is like I am "anti everything".

People with a mental illness usually hear voices telling them to kill themselves, hurt others, break the law, do bad things...their hallucinations are generally fearful and freaky and this leads to a very poor quality of life...you usually see them having loud, full-on conversations with themselves and making very weird, high pitched vocalizations at irregular intervals.

Then there are others who hear voices telling them to be kind to themselves and to others, not to eat junk food, to be patient and give others more time to come around, to take time out to play...their hallucinations are deep, bright and vivid leading to feelings of peace, love, joy, bliss...and a much happier lifestyle.

How do I know they are not hallucinations? I don't...but then again, nobody can say that they are either!

Because there are those, like Buddhists and Advaita Vedantins, who will say that the whole world and everything in it is merely a big mass-hallucination because ONLY truth #3 exists and they call everything else MAYA or Illusion.

Those who disagree with that would be the very first to call such people "insane" because that only shows just how much they disagree with them and NOTHING else! Yeah.."you must be crazy because I disagree with everything you say".

In regards to life after death, scientists like Eben Alexander, Robert Lanza (Beyond Biocentrism), Nassim Haramein etc have a different philosophy altogether than the one you are presenting, however, these scientists are seen as "pseudoscientists" or "fake scientists" by those who disagree with them..yeah, "you are fake because I disagree with you".

There is no general consensus here.

You go to a country like India..see many who believe in cryptid deities...so, according to the Western DSM V, there would be over a billion people who are ALL "insane" isn't it?

If you really look into the DSM V...the diagnostic manual for mental illness...you will notice there are thousands of diagnostic criteria and you could pigeonhole every living person on this planet into one criteria or another, so there really is no such thing as "normality" anyway.

How do I know that I am not delusional, hallucinating, fooling myself etc? I just know it yet I cannot prove that to YOU and if you don't believe me, that is not my problem, it is yours...and that is how I look at it.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by freebird

But how do you know that it was "truth" and not a hallucination? How do you know that subjective proof is fact?

Science observes phenomenon in and around the world , establishes the cause and effect relationships and avers axioms many a time quantifying or giving numerical representation in such laws. This holds true for all material / natural sciences .

For social sciences such as politics / economics / psychology / anthropology etc numeric representation of axioms / laws is not required (as it is not possible also) . Still people believe these sciences as there are some visible / identifiable cause effect relationships . People were very late to recognise psychology as science as the cause effect relationships therein are very subtle and behavioural which only a person with knowledge of psychology can observe.

In case of spirituality , it is even more subtle than psychology. The cause effect relationship is spread over period of time / spread over group of people and not quantifiable and predictable with precise accuracy. So it is no surprise that people even now discard it as mere belief system.But all these difficulty still do not mean there is no cause effect and there can be no spiritual laws.

Originally Posted by freebird

Whenever someone speaks about spirituality most of the "rational people" regard that person as mentally ill such as schizophrenic

This kind of opinions have historic background . Due to phenomenal success of material sciences and inability of spiritualists to keep pace with them , many people like Karl Marx , Sigmund Freud , Adam Smith ,Darwin and many more social thinkers have shaken the foundations of spirituality (knowingly or unknowingly ) . Even irrational ignorant selfish spiritualists too are to be blamed for this sorry state of affairs . Due to this , it is not taught at any level to current generation of people . With this background , I am even happy that some people like you are even talking about spirituality (even for mocking as mentally ill ) .

Originally Posted by freebird

Will science ever accept spirituality as "truth"?

Truth and facts are never swayed by majority beliefs . It is absolute . Even if all the people in the world come and say fire is cold , it will not turn it into cold . Earth was round and revolving around sun even before Galileo / Copernicus discovered the same (despite brutal majority against them persecuting them with their nose bleeding ....) .

With the laws and tests methods of material science , science will not be able to accept spirituality as truth . With methods of social sciences , more acute observations , it can accept it definitely.