Dependent origination

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Remove the obstruction ...

no anger, want, etc

You could say that same thing in the positive I think: Choose an experience of now free of thought and thinking. Free of conditioning. Instead of wording it as removing something, it's adding something. Discernment is added and we choose a different experience and way to be.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

mostly for people they still have subconscious thoughts below the surface.

These thoughts are really on the surface or at least they sure get there. They are what I interact with if I am interacting with them. They are what they and I experience.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Silence is nice.. but when you have them and if you are caught up or not is what matters..

Someone enlightened can still make noise. But we hope the noise leads to peace and love! Yea being caught up in thought or not does matter a lot for some. Naturally happy, content, nice, conflict free, loving people, their thought is not a problem for them or others. But for those in inner or outer conflict, dealing with negative thought patterns, freedom from thought, a greater self understanding, more self awareness, will make their lives a lot better. It can get rid of self caused suffering. Get rid of stress and conflict.

[sentient]

About thoughts and thinking …

Insights do crystallize into conceptual thoughts ….. but the stiller the mind becomes, the less thoughts there are - and slowly one develops direct inner knowing without much need for verbal conceptualizations …..

But this, I trust - is when one gets into the so called Jhanas ….

Ajahn Brahm:

And then, when it’s ready - you don’t do anything & this is what happens … you get stiller and stiller – and the other lotus leaf opens up and now you are in the jhana.

You’re so focused in the jhanas you can’t think, you can’t describe these states to yourself at the time, because you are too still to make any descriptions.

(Remember; - to describe things to yourself you have to have some width to be able to look it this way and look at it that way and talk it over with yourself)

In jhana …. you are just gathering this incredible data.

Later on you will be able to understand what it is. While you’re in there you are just gathering data, you can’t move, you can’t do anything – you are just in this incredible state …..

Ok. that is a description of a jhana-state, but …….. the more these states happen the more ‘jhanaic’, still and silent the mind also becomes when samadhi deepens …..

(Trying to use the Buddhist lingo here ....)

*

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sentient

Ok. that is a description of a jhana-state,

Jhana Meditation is about trances and such. Alternate "para-normal" experiences. Sitting with the eyes closed having hallucinogenic drug like experiences, all drug free of course! But then the brain can actually make chemicals like hallucinogenic drugs so who knows. Dreams, imagination, self hypnosis, visualization, all lead to Jhana type experiences. People go into sensory deprivation tanks and see and hear all kinds of stuff too. Some people think the things people experience in these states are real and some don't. I'd say it's a mix. Some are real, some are some combination of imagination, self-hypnosis, suggestion, and visualization.

I remember reading about peoples experiences with one special type of hallucinogenic drug, one not well known, and many of the experiences were strangely the same. The person would encounter this mass of moving, brightly colored geometric forms, then after awhile, they would find themselves approached by these goblin like creatures who were inquisitive about them. One asked a person, "Why are you here?" Another person was told, "You're not supposed to be here!" The odd part about this is like 4 of the 8 people who took the drug and wrote about it in their forums experienced these goblin creatures. Strange stuff. Maybe suggestion? Maybe a portal to another dimension?

It's like LSD. Are people's sensory apparatus enhanced OR are they just perceiving what actually exists to one not locked into the brains normal translation?

Buddha's state is also basically an altered experience of reality. That's really what enlightenment is. But it's a lot different than Jhana in my opinion. It is a different experience of "what is" as opposed to a different "what is," like in Jhana. That idea is in different Buddhist writings, describing it as "empty of form" or "ordinary." It is the experience that happens when one has erased or dissolved or put away everything that makes us this particular person. The conditioning, the thought patterns, the habits, getting rid of them not in the sense of they are gone, no they completely continue. Getting rid of them in the sense of they become background in my current self knowing and experience and not foreground, which of course changes all my experience.

See in Jhana one may see or sense other realities, but Buddha's enlightenment would be perceiving everything we are perceiving, the difference being is "what it is to him" without ideas, conceptual knowledge and data. What is the perception of a tree when the one perceiving has no pre-conceived ideas about what the tree is? Without an idea of me and that, the experience of me and that changes. The lines are blurred. Life becomes filled with wonder and awe inspiring "reality." Without ideas of what I am, or this is, we become light and free, peaceful, conflict free. Always in the moment, free of a "person's" influence....one would probably say, under the influence of the divine.

[sentient]

^
In the meantime, whilst taking my time to mull over your post Phaelyn …..
I had been looking for the notes for the series of talks on Jhana by Richard Shankman … & I think I found them:

https://www.audiodharma.org
› 2009-03-07_RichardShankman_Samadhi

https://www.audiodharma.org/series/135/talk/6648/

^
Referring to "Samadhi Daylong Student Handout by Richard Shankman".

*

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Jhana Meditation is about trances and such.

I personally see Jhanas as trance-like states, whilst others are strongly opposed to that idea.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Alternate "para-normal" experiences. Sitting with the eyes closed having hallucinogenic drug like experiences, all drug free of course! But then the brain can actually make chemicals like hallucinogenic drugs so who knows. Dreams, imagination, self hypnosis, visualization, all lead to Jhana type experiences. People go into sensory deprivation tanks and see and hear all kinds of stuff too. Some people think the things people experience in these states are real and some don't. I'd say it's a mix. Some are real, some are some combination of imagination, self-hypnosis, suggestion, and visualization.

Here I would refer to the class notes of my previous post: "Samadhi Daylong Student Handout by Richard Shankman" for Buddhist context.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I remember reading about peoples experiences with one special type of hallucinogenic drug, one not well known, and many of the experiences were strangely the same. The person would encounter this mass of moving, brightly colored geometric forms, then after awhile, they would find themselves approached by these goblin like creatures who were inquisitive about them. One asked a person, "Why are you here?" Another person was told, "You're not supposed to be here!" The odd part about this is like 4 of the 8 people who took the drug and wrote about it in their forums experienced these goblin creatures. Strange stuff. Maybe suggestion? Maybe a portal to another dimension?

Interesting – curious ….
Not too sure, but dual mind sets seeking “power” via astral means seem to seek ‘other dimensional entities’, but this can turn into a hellish reality …
But then there are the Taoists ….. so yes, I think so too …. There are portals …

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Buddha's state is also basically an altered experience of reality. That's really what enlightenment is.

Yes – I would agree.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

But it's a lot different than Jhana in my opinion. It is a different experience of "what is" as opposed to a different "what is," like in Jhana.

Insights inform our practice – but imo. so do the jhanas. Here I am just sketching …. but perhaps, perhaps jhanas in this context could be described as similar to movie trailers - the “info downloaded” in jhanas are like previews of how your reality is about to change as the path unfolds ….

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

That idea is in different Buddhist writings, describing it as "empty of form" or "ordinary." It is the experience that happens when one has erased or dissolved or put away everything that makes us this particular person. The conditioning, the thought patterns, the habits, getting rid of them not in the sense of they are gone, no they completely continue. Getting rid of them in the sense of they become background in my current self knowing and experience and not foreground, which of course changes all my experience.

See in Jhana one may see or sense other realities, but Buddha's enlightenment would be perceiving everything we are perceiving, the difference being is "what it is to him" without ideas, conceptual knowledge and data. What is the perception of a tree when the one perceiving has no pre-conceived ideas about what the tree is? Without an idea of me and that, the experience of me and that changes. The lines are blurred. Life becomes filled with wonder and awe inspiring "reality." Without ideas of what I am, or this is, we become light and free, peaceful, conflict free. Always in the moment, free of a "person's" influence....one would probably say, under the influence of the divine.

I would personally see it like this quote from the class notes:

I considered . . . could jhana be the path to enlightenment? Then came the realization: ‘That is the path to enlightenment.’

The Buddha
Mahasaccaka Sutta

But there is also the opinion, that one does not have to get into the jhanas to become enlightened ….

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[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sentient

Here I am just sketching …. but perhaps, perhaps jhanas in this context could be described as similar to movie trailers - the “info downloaded” in jhanas are like previews of how your reality is about to change as the path unfolds ….

That reminds me of an experience I had once. I think maybe it was a bit of a "preview" because it seems like something we are headed towards far after this life time.

One afternoon, I was stuck in a parked car waiting for a friend I drove to an appointment. I had been reading a bunch of spiritual stuff the day before, so I was thinking about this theme in the spiritual books, about "erasing the self," or the "false self" and I was bored as I knew I could be waiting there for hours, so I thought of trying to erase myself for a way to pass the time.

So I started to mentally discard any idea or belief or thought that belonged to me. I was trying to imagine and experience what sitting there that day in that car would be like if I was wholly somebody else. But I didn't have anybody else in mind, so I was just observing myself and as stuff came up, I let it go as not me or mine. I think I went into some kind of trance after awhile as I lost all sense of time and place.

Then I looked up at the sky through the car window, so returned to focusing on visual awareness, and the sky was partly cloudy with rain clouds, but it was sunny as well, so light rays were poking holes in the clouds, and a ray was on the car, but then as I was looking towards the clouds, I started to move through them as if I was flying. All of this happened really fast like a flash in time. Next, I had a profound metaphysical experience that is hard to explain. My entire being experienced what I assume was the source or God or whatever one calls it.

For a brief moment, my awareness, expanded, blew up. I don't know how to explain it. It would be kind of like a second grader suddenly having the mind of Stephen Hawking but on a much bigger scale. I experienced the awareness and intelligence of this source and it was mind blowing. Far beyond anything I could ever even imagine. And during the brief experience, I was wholly aware that I was grazing "it," encountering and experiencing an "edge of it" like the smallest edge of an envelope. Connecting at that level. Then I suddenly came out of it. One takeaway for me was how vast and amazing what is to come really is. How much potential we actually have.

[sentient]

^
I can’t see why your experience/vision Phaelyn wouldn’t have been in that “jhanic” ballpark.

I also cannot see, why you would have been given that “vision” if you didn’t have the potential to realize it in this life-time - (perhaps setting your “compass” by it?)
Your choice – what seems/feels absolutely right and true for you ...
And honouring one's own experiences, insights and “jhanic” states if they happen …..

*

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are wanting to argue about someone having a soul or not. That is a little different than someone having obstructions and thoughts.

If you have anger you have an obstruction. At this stage in your life anger and you are one. You are still attached to it, still get caught up in it.



The path is about removing the obstructions to realize clarity of ones nature.

Annata isn't about your thoughts and saying I am not this. That is a Hindu practice. You are your thoughts. Buddhism isn't about duality, if you were not your thoughts then was are they? Where do they come from? Why is it separate from you?

You mean well.

But here is the teaching:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:

"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"[Mental] fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren
(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka....059.than.html

Anatta is at heart of all Buddhist realization.

As Thich Nhat Hanh says, you can distinguish genuine Buddhist teachings by looking for the three Dharma seals (regardless of tradition)

Anatta
Annica
Dukkha

Your questions are fair but I don’t have time to teach you, or correct such fundamental misconceptions, so if you are genuine I recommend you go to Buddhist forums or teachers to learn, rather than spread misconceptions and falsehoods

That is my heartfelt advice

Jl

Originally Posted by Gem

I think the first thing to consider is that Buddha taught the dhamma as universal and not as sectarian Buddhist, so using the breath analogously, there is no Buddhist breath. Everyone without exception is breathing. To extrapolate that principle is the essence of Dhamma, and although it's Buddhist lexicon to say 'dhamma', the law of the universe is the same for everyone.

Spiritually in itself is a solo journey. No one can feel your breath for you, and the breath is a very valuable analogy in many ways, because you don;t even breath, it's already there, and all you do is pay attention to whats going on.


Let others talk about the high spiritual things and continue the practice of self awareness, mindful of everything that's going on especially with regards to yourself. Just know: if enlightenment is not here then it's not here; if it is, it is. Is bliss here or not? You know the truth with regards to yourself.

It requires close attention, so your meditation is not passive apathy but an alert, constant, diligent, continual presence of mind. It is called 'mere awareness' because nothing is added, but it also called ardent awareness because it can not be distracted from that point of knowing, and in the meditation, each time you realise you're distracted, you are with the truth of your distractraction, and soon enough you realise just how distracted you really are.


The truth is highly motivating, isn't it? This is important because motive is fundamental, and the irony is, when ardent for the truth, all desire with regard to the world becomes superfluous - and the dynamic between aversion and craving becomes transparent.

Nicely said, thanks

Jl

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

as stuff came up, I let it go as not me or mine. I think I went into some kind of trance after awhile as I lost all sense of time and place.

Then I looked up at the sky through the car window, so returned to focusing on visual awareness, and the sky was partly cloudy with rain clouds, but it was sunny as well, so light rays were poking holes in the clouds, and a ray was on the car, but then as I was looking towards the clouds, I started to move through them as if I was flying. All of this happened really fast like a flash in time. Next, I had a profound metaphysical experience that is hard to explain. My entire being experienced what I assume was the source or God or whatever one calls it.

For a brief moment, my awareness, expanded, blew up. I don't know how to explain it. It would be kind of like a second grader suddenly having the mind of Stephen Hawking but on a much bigger scale. I experienced the awareness and intelligence of this source and it was mind blowing. Far beyond anything I could ever even imagine. And during the brief experience, I was wholly aware that I was grazing "it," encountering and experiencing an "edge of it" like the smallest edge of an envelope. Connecting at that level. Then I suddenly came out of it. One takeaway for me was how vast and amazing what is to come really is. How much potential we actually have.

That’s beautifully relayed,