Dependent origination

[quote=jonesboy]

Originally Posted by janielee

This has nothing to do with different views.



I don't lie and you have never shown me where I have lied. I have been wrong about things but that is different.



I consider you saying I am in a cult an attack as do the mods. We can debate about Anatta but you have never shown me where I have been wrong about it.



I have never admitted any such thing. I did Mahamudra and went to a Buddhist temple HERE for a long time.



I am not asking anyone to see me as a teacher. This is a forum where people discuss and debate things.

What is amazing is this thread is 28 pages long and I think you have only posted 1 thing on Buddhist teachings. The rest is just you attacking people.

Maybe you should look in the mirror a little bit before pointing the finger at others?

If you don’t understand how Anatta is not “you are the anger” there is nothing more to be said.

You can’t expect me to debate someone who claims to be a cook, argue that a vegetable is a fish. Where would I start? I gave you the link and you still inisisted a vegetable swims, or alternatively the vegetable is a fish,

You yourself said you’ve never done any Buddhist practices - see your own words in the links - and going to a Buddhist temple, regrettably, means little.

Your canvas of ideas is so antithetical to teachings and when pointed out, you can’t understand it, instead claiming you are being attacked. That is why I told you go to Dharmawheel. Or any Buddhist forum, which you will not.

Spelt out, you didn’t understand Anatta. Explained, you couldn’t comprehend it.

Jl

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

"The Buddha's teachings on love are clear. It is possible to live twenty-four hours a day in a state of love."
— Thich Nhat Hanh

A good teacher,

Jl

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'd say yes. We are the same thing. There is not a Buddhist awareness and a different type, a Catholic one. The differences come from mentally created concepts. Awareness can focus on a Buddhist book or a Christian one. Still the same awareness.

“Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.”

― Meister Eckhart

Intellectually I agree, in practice, it’s doubtful those that believe they are there, are This is just my opinion. I also don’t see Buddhist practice just being this, Buddhism without insight (into Dhamma and dhamma) would be a more basic entry point imo

Jl

[Gem]

I think the first thing to consider is that Buddha taught the dhamma as universal and not as sectarian Buddhist, so using the breath analogously, there is no Buddhist breath. Everyone without exception is breathing. To extrapolate that principle is the essence of Dhamma, and although it's Buddhist lexicon to say 'dhamma', the law of the universe is the same for everyone.

Spiritually in itself is a solo journey. No one can feel your breath for you, and the breath is a very valuable analogy in many ways, because you don;t even breath, it's already there, and all you do is pay attention to whats going on.


Let others talk about the high spiritual things and continue the practice of self awareness, mindful of everything that's going on especially with regards to yourself. Just know: if enlightenment is not here then it's not here; if it is, it is. Is bliss here or not? You know the truth with regards to yourself.


From that point of truth, you know. It's not 'someone else' who knows what's happening and can elucidate you. These teachers are remembered in books, but no one is there but the imaginary Buddha person you only think up because you have been told the story, which you now participate in. A fine thing though it may be, paying attention to 'reality' as it is experienced by you is necessary in the sense that if you don't know what's going on then you know not what you do.


It requires close attention, so your meditation is not passive apathy but an alert, constant, diligent, continual presence of mind. It is called 'mere awareness' because nothing is added, but it also called ardent awareness because it can not be distracted from that point of knowing, and in the meditation, each time you realise you're distracted, you are with the truth of your distractraction, and soon enough you realise just how distracted you really are.


The truth is highly motivating, isn't it? This is important because motive is fundamental, and the irony is, when ardent for the truth, all desire with regard to the world becomes superfluous - and the dynamic between aversion and craving becomes transparent.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

There are two things that can refer to. One is physical. That wall, and the moon, and my body are all the same thing, atoms, energy.

Then the second is in the world of ideas and concepts. Pain is the same as pleasure. Up is the same as down. One may ask, how can
these things be the same? They are the same because they are words, ideas. How does a Buddha experience no mental suffering
whatever the outward or inner reality is? By not interpreting it mentally. Not adding ideas about whatever is. I'd point out action does still happen,
but the source of that action is a being free of their conditioning, so that nature, full of compassion and empathy and love, (and awareness and understanding)
acts, not ones biased conditioning or ego. The source of action changes. The nature of conscious energy itself acts, not the nature of what that energy can attach to.

Another little philosophical trick in that Buddhist statement, kind of like a koan, void=form and form=void, is that void is as much as a concept as form is.
One point is where both exist, which is in the mind as ideas. Another point is both are perceptions. This leads to ideas about what form refers to.
Form basically is about the mind adding a mental layer to what is perceived. Void would be the exact same underlying perception without interpretation,
only experience. In this way, void and form would be equal to an enlightened mind that is not identifying with additional layers and are aware of their delusional
and impermanent nature.

It is a concept that is meant to be realized as a state of being.

Void is silence, form is energy.

Here is a very nice explanation of it for you.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu states the following about the primordial state...

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy. (Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State)

The Heart Sutra says that the realization of Emptiness is when...

Form = Void and Void = Form

Norbu and the Heart Sutra are saying the same thing, but just describing it coming from different perspectives.

The Dzogchen usage of "essence" is the same as the classic usage of void. The void is empty with no activity at all. Nothing to perceive and nothing to sense. Like a totally dead sea with no motion. This same meaning is found in the first half of the Heart Sutra. The statement of Form = Void means that one breaks down (or perceives past) form until one notices the Void underneath it all. It is similar to when you look at a blackboard you only notice the writing in chalk. But if you erase the board a little, you start to notice that the chalk is really in/on the blackboard.

The Dzogchen usage of "energy" is the same as used in other traditions, the difference just being that in Buddhism, energy practices are started much later in the path which results in smaller swings compared to other tantric traditions. The same point of energy is found in the second half of the Heart Sutra. Void = Form means that energy "emerges" from the void and is a component of the void. In the blackboard analogy, this is the creation or writing on the blackboard.

The Dzogchen usage of "nature" is what is often called "light". It is the pristine clarity of the void. Or in more modern terms, it is the structure or raw building stuff of mind/universal mind. In the Heart Sutra, it is what is "realized" when one integrates and realizes both of the individual components of the Heart Sutra.

Ultimately, void is nothingness, energy is the motion of nothingness, clarity (or light) is the realization of the potential of it all.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by janielee

Jl

You are wanting to argue about someone having a soul or not. That is a little different than someone having obstructions and thoughts.

If you have anger you have an obstruction. At this stage in your life anger and you are one. You are still attached to it, still get caught up in it.

Kleshas (Sanskrit: क्लेश, romanized: kleśa; Pali: किलेस kilesa; Standard Tibetan: ཉོན་མོངས། nyon mongs), in Buddhism, are mental states that cloud the mind and manifest in unwholesome actions. Kleshas include states of mind such as anxiety, fear, anger, jealousy, desire, depression, etc. Contemporary translators use a variety of English words to translate the term kleshas, such as: afflictions, defilements, destructive emotions, disturbing emotions, negative emotions, mind poisons, etc.

In the contemporary Mahayana and Theravada Buddhist traditions, the three kleshas of ignorance, attachment, and aversion are identified as the root or source of all other kleshas. These are referred to as the three poisons in the Mahayana tradition, or as the three unwholesome roots in the Theravada tradition.

The path is about removing the obstructions to realize clarity of ones nature.

Annata isn't about your thoughts and saying I am not this. That is a Hindu practice. You are your thoughts. Buddhism isn't about duality, if you were not your thoughts then was are they? Where do they come from? Why is it separate from you?

The goal of the Buddhist contemplative is to develop freedom of the will/mind (Citta) from entanglement with things as they seem; through the delusions of desire and consequential self-identity with events, resultant fear, aversion and projected hopes—to awaken to things as they are; coming home to a natural understanding of reality with one's given abilities at work in an ever changing evolution of experience. “The mind (Citta) is cleansed of the Five Skandhas (pañcakkhandha)” Nettippakarana

In the Tathagatagarbha Sutra, The Buddha is portrayed telling of how, with his buddha-eye, he can actually see this hidden "jewel" within each and every being:

"hidden within the kleśas mental contaminants of greed, desire, anger, and stupidity, there is seated augustly and unmovingly the Tathagata's Buddha's Wisdom, the Tathagata's vision, and the Tathagata's body [...] all beings, though they find themselves with all sorts of kleśas, have a Tathagatagarbha that is eternally unsullied, and replete with virtues no different from my own".

This represents a being's potential to become a Buddha; it is the "true self" in the sense of being the ideal personality, not a metaphysical essence. As The Buddha is portrayed as proclaiming in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra;

Good son, there are three ways of having: first, to have in the future, Secondly, to have at present, and thirdly, to have in the past. All Sentient beings will have in future ages the most perfect Enlightenment, i.e., the Buddha nature. All Sentient beings have at present bonds of defilements, and do not now possess the thirty-two marks and eighty noble characteristics of The Buddha.

Lastly for you enjoyment.

Maha Boowa relates that the core of an individual's being and Nibbana are quite distinct in a Dhamma talk with a disciple of his, Mae chee Kaew:

"When you investigate mental phenomena until you go beyond them completely, the remaining defiling elements of consciousness will be drawn into a radiant nucleus of awareness, which merges with the mind’s naturally radiant essence.

This radiance is so majestic and mesmerizing that even transcendent faculties like spontaneous Mindfulness and intuitive Wisdom invariably fall under its spell. The mind’s brightness and clarity appear to be so extraordinary and awe-inspiring, that nothing can possibly compare. The luminous essence is the epitome of perfect goodness and virtue, the ultimate in spiritual happiness.

It is your true, original self — the core of your being. But this true self is also the fundamental source of all attachment to being and becoming. Ultimately it is attachment to the allure of this primordial radiance of mind that causes living beings to wander indefinitely through the world of becoming and ceasing, constantly grasping at birth and enduring death.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are your thoughts.

But you don't have to be.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

But you don't have to be.

There is nothing wrong with thoughts, it is the clarity of them that matters.

With clarity there is no anger, want, etc..

Remove the obstruction and there is nothing negative that arises. That is why clarity is an aspect of the Primordial State.

Clarity is a thought...

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

There is nothing wrong with thoughts, it is the clarity of them that matters.

With clarity there is no anger, want, etc..

Remove the obstruction and there is nothing negative that arises. That is why clarity is an aspect of the Primordial State.

Clarity is a thought...

Thoughts are fine if they result in something positive.
It's also great to have time without them.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Thoughts maybe fine if you use or need them for something positive.
It's also great to have time without them.

Sure is.. but mostly for people they still have subconscious thoughts below the surface.

Silence is nice.. but when you have them and if you are caught up or not is what matters..