Dependent origination

[Unseeking Seeker]

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@ jonesboy ... I accept I’m not there yet, nor do I claim to be

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[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by running

there is no cause....

That was really deep stuff there to me. Love without cause, inherently present.
You have tapped into some deep truths and realities. That's a lot of awareness
in my view. More awareness than I have. I'm like a person covered in mud trying
to enter the palace. I see the palace, know where it is, but yea they say,
omg your a mess, go wash up or sumpthin....

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

our default position

Originally Posted by jonesboy

That's nice but first you have to get there.

That's what I start with. Then I ask, "If it is already here, already what I am, why am I not experiencing it?" If I ask, why am I not experiencing what is already reality? I may do self inquiry, self observation, to find out how I am obscuring it. What am I doing or not doing, or seeing or not seeing, that prevents the experience of it? As dependent origination says, I am probably ignorant of something. That ignorance, lack of understanding, leads on down the road of delusion. Self understanding is key I suppose. But I know what I know, experience and time is my teacher.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

That's what I start with. Then I ask, "If it is already here, already what I am, why am I not experiencing it?" If I ask, why am I not experiencing what is already reality? I may do self inquiry, self observation, to find out how I am obscuring it. What am I doing or not doing, or seeing or not seeing, that prevents the experience of it? As dependent origination says, I am probably ignorant of something. That ignorance, lack of understanding, leads on down the road of delusion. Self understanding is key I suppose. But I know what I know, experience and time is my teacher.

It's not a mental concept, a mental understanding, a thought. It is beyond all that. The stages are a change in how you experience everything, your being.

Meditate, do energy practices, realize silence and energy, your mind and body are all one and the same thing. Not from a conceptual understanding but from a lived everyday knowing, being.

[sentient]

If one genuinely makes a firm commitment to ‘come’ to the “union with God” and then totally surrenders that desire to “God” – I cannot see why the path wouldn’t be opened up and why one wouldn’t be guided by the Divine Grace – through the 8 jhanas to “Enlightenment”.
But better be absolutely sure one wants and is ready for this.

And once on the “path” – it is like the saying – “There is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant”.

So if one keeps to the original commitment without clinging/holding …. I can’t see why “Enlightenment” wouldn’t be possible.


I’m learning here …. But of course I cannot do this without seeing it also in context of Shamanic spirituality.


Samadhi translated as “concentration” also meaning “undistracted”.
Fixed concentration = “one-pointedness” as Samadhi strengthens ……..

2 different Jhana –systems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYzGq5SXSsc
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LGLSUFxVOk

1) Jhana as exclusive undistractedness.

2) Jhana as inclusive of change ……. as in awareness that is open where mind comes to stillness & is unmoving - undistracted by changing experiences.


Shamanic ‘jhana’ is the latter 'type' as “arriving at the World Pole, The World Tree” (our Holy place) is to be In Timelessness and Time simultaneously. In Stillness and Movement simultaneously. In Unborn and Manifestation simultaneously.

Yet 'exclusive undistractedness' is also included, because when there is a situation need to perceive something in greater depth – then momentarily one goes into an involuntary or voluntary 'exclusive Samadhi state' & I would use the word ‘trance’ here.


The ‘trance-like path’ from my personal point of view - I would describe as deepening of the Jhanas (from 1 to 8).
Trance-likeness to me means bridging the paradox …. “Being nothing, you are Everything.” etc. etc.

And how to not start clinging to some 'exclusive jhanic states' & thus go astray is to always, but always to remember one's ‘Bodhicitta vow’.
To a tribal person i.e. collective id. and to a hunter-gatherer To serve Totality always comes first.

Enlightenment is ego's ultimate disappointment.
~ Trungpa

White man got no dreaming,
Him go ‘nother way.
White man, him go different,
Him got road belong himself.
~ ?

*

All this obsession with bliss is so boring

Yawn.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

That's what I start with. Then I ask, "If it is already here, already what I am, why am I not experiencing it?" If I ask, why am I not experiencing what is already reality? I may do self inquiry, self observation, to find out how I am obscuring it. What am I doing or not doing, or seeing or not seeing, that prevents the experience of it? As dependent origination says, I am probably ignorant of something. That ignorance, lack of understanding, leads on down the road of delusion. Self understanding is key I suppose. But I know what I know, experience and time is my teacher.

Exactly.

But the knowledge (“understanding”) of Dhamma is not of the intellect. It’s the direct sensory perception borne of meditative practices and the application of the eightfold path. Those whom know, generally don’t speak, because what is realized is far beyond the real of words, although we can certainly use language to point and to hint. As the Buddha did, to a degree, to encourage those that practiced under him, but it’s not the full extent of it.

Jl

Originally Posted by jonesboy

One should not desire it or get caught up in it.











Bliss is a very big part of the path and as you can see one can get caught up in it very easily. The Buddha warns against staying at or stopping at feeling bliss and to think of helping others as the means to move beyond the current level of bliss they are experiencing.

If one hasn't experienced bliss first in meditation and then later as part of ones daily life.. examine your practice..for there is no doubt it is real and a part of the stages of progression.

Thanks for the google search.

Looks like you’ve captured running’s state well. Stuck in bliss, believing it’s the end of the road...nothing wrong with that I suppose, but not the Buddha
Way,

As to your advice, no thanks. I’ll take my lessons from a realized teacher anytime

Jl

[running]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Thanks for all that. Now I understand how my brain was inferring false stuff about how you were using the words. My brain/thoughts were limiting the meaning, limiting my interpretation to one narrow meaning. Makes me trust my own thoughts even less! It's interesting as I've already learned a great deal about what I used to hold as far as habitual thought patterns, I'd just accept as true and "mine" when the thoughts were present. But some non-nonsensical "delusional" interpretations are obviously still operating. Not enough "wisdom" I suppose. But then I'm not sure how my brain could know the depth in how you were using the words, without the depth somehow reflected in the language so "I" could understand. Assumptions probably play into it. But then assumptions can create their own can of worms.

Like I could reason, ok Running obviously is very non-judgmental, kind, patient, not prone to anger and such in his writing, so is far along the path to "enlightenment." A wise and experienced old soul. So if I read something my brain limited in some non-enlightened or non-advanced narrow way, like the word devotion, limiting it to a stereotype of someone worshiping a statue or whatever, I could discard that thought as it goes against what I know or have assumed you to be based on those other factors I am aware of. So there it is 100% better way to interpret and gets me to the truth of what is.

But then say I look at the same things in some guru, assume he is enlightened, then news breaks he has had affairs with 10 of his female students, then my same brain reasoning powers thinks, well I "know" he is enlightened, so I can just put all the affair sex stuff to the side as I can't know why enlightened people do what they do. Happens in real life a lot. Then the guru will also tell their followers to discard their negative thoughts about him. Saying I will tell you what is true!

Our complex brains and the interpretations and thoughts they produce can really get us in some bad situation and into some really bad experiences. They can tell and convince us false things are true and true things are false. Biases, selfish interests, limited data, limited intelligence, lack of awareness, false information and "facts." Like say my job is to make chemicals. Weed killers or something. I support the family I love with this job. Put food on the table. Pay the rent. Then there is news the chemical is making people very sick. My friends on the job, say no, no we tested it, it's not our chemical making them sick. Because of these subconscious factors and assumed truths like, I need this job, I know I am a good person as are my friends here on the job, my brain will accept some information and reject other info based on what I believe is true and assume. I know we tested it, I know we are all good kind people, my bosses I trust and depend on, that pay me, say our chemicals are safe, so no, we could not be harming people.

Really this all defines the spiritual path in a nutshell. We have to constantly reflect on what we know or assume to be true. What our minds are telling us. Compare and contrast it with experiential data. Question our assumptions. Listen more than talk. This honest inquiring mind will lead to truth. This is all weaved into dependent origination as well.



It all starts with ignorance. A lack of knowledge. Then comes habitual
thoughts, habitual reasoning, habitual assumptions, personal conditioning and bias.... leading to the forms, person, ego, and all the rest....

In every moment our brains are interpreting, telling us about what now is, making now what it is, judging ourselves and others, telling us what we are and what others are, layers and layers of mental conditioning from internal and external sources. Who was it Ram Das that wrote that book, Be Here Now? There is all this content present here now. Can we be free of it to be here now, experience this now and ourselves and others as we really are, before this content tells us what all of this is? What is that tree, the blue sky, the green grass, the smell of the air, the sun on my face, that other person, me, when I am present to it all without "me" without the content, without the interpretation, without any idea..

i wish to make a few comments.

from reading your posts its obvious to me you have an open mind and strong ability to think. from reading this post that seems vclear. thanks for sharing your thoughts! i do similiar thinking myself so it was interesting to me.

if i seem those things from reading my posts. other posts would bring an opposite reaction in thought. for the record i have all the same human flaws as everyone else. i realise you were just using that as an example as a thinking process you were illustrating we do. but saying that goes with my next comment.

bliss doesn't make somebody great at being the kind of person we would look up to. or more intelligent. people somehow come to all kinds of strange ideas that are pure fantasy. i have been around two gurus. one often made a point about this. was extremely honest about it. very refreshing. the other didn't mention about it but was also not trying to have a power trip on people. maybe there was some. but nothing like the horror stories out there.
i would never and will never worship any person ever. i do appreciate transmissions from gurus when i was getting them. appreciate any help i got. but never worship. if there is ever a sin in my view that is it. just my opinion.

[running]

Originally Posted by janielee

Thanks,

Jl

no problem. and i know all this bliss talk can be boring. as your yawn post indicated. im not being sarcastic. i get it. i got to keep talking about it so its in the air as possibility. so i wish to say i understand and dont take it personally. nor do i mind at all the comments that could be seen as negative towards bliss.