Understanding the Lords Prayer

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I know you like Pali Canon teachings... so..



Previously I mentioned stages or how concepts and traditions can lead to different realizations. One like Siva is not the same as a Buddha.. or maybe that was in the Hindu thread.. anyway.. this touches on that.

Indeed, it's how insight opens up differently for individuals, and as I was saying earlier, although Buddha didn't teach chakras and energies and such things, it's a common enough experience in practice (pretty much always, really, for ardent practitioners).


It's just that the meditation is operating on something deeper and energy experience is considered to be a consequence.

Interesting stuff :)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/.../wheel263.html

Thanks. I enjoyed your previous link very much as well.

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

No soul as in there is no thing that resides somewhere.

Christians have a 'soul' that resides somewhere, perhaps not as matter, but still something tangible and separate.

No God, as in some being that is above all others. Like Jesus said we are all joint heirs.

We are all joint heirs alongside Christ when we serve Christ, and will be rewarded as he was, by the Father, who is separate from him and us.

John 12:24-26
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

There is a being that is above all others, Christianity is dualistic, and this shouldn't be whitewashed out of it so it accords with other religious or philosophical beliefs.

Christians are required to serve Jesus, who is separate from the Father. Christians are required to choose good over bad. To not be tempted by Satan, who will try to lure people away from what they should be doing.


I think you have to understand what the realization of that no suffering is.


The Primordial State in Buddhism has 3 aspects to it.

The way through for Christians is via suffering -

Acts 5:41

So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.

Acts 9:16

for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

Romans 8:17

and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Romans 8:36

Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

2 Corinthians 1:7

and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort.

2 Corinthians 11:23

Are they servants of Christ?--I speak as if insane--I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.

Philippians 3:10

that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

2 Timothy 2:12

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Hebrews 11:25

choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,

James 5:10

As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 2:20

For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

1 Peter 3:14

But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,

1 Peter 4:16

but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

1 Peter 5:10

After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

Matthew 5:11

"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matthew 10:22

"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.



Matthew 19:29

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

1 Corinthians 4:10

We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor.

2 Corinthians 4:5

For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

2 Corinthians 4:11

For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:10

Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Philippians 1:29

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

That is equal to Jesus saying this:

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Void is rest.



Love thy neighbor, judge not lest you be judged.

Also, with such a definition it becomes easy to understand how God doesn't hate or cause suffering.




Again,

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Energy is the motion.

Motion and rest is form=void from the Heart Sutra.

Shakti and Siva from KS.

To realize Heaven, to realize the light, you have to realize both aspects.

Beyond the light is emptiness which is where Jesus and the Buddha would disagree with KS. That even universal consciousness is a limitation.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

The light is universal consciousness, beyond the light is emptiness or the Dao.

Buddhist just skip the light stuff and focus on emptiness. In truth depending on ones path it is all one and the same. Realize emptiness of universal consciousness and you have realized the light. Realizing the light doesn't mean you have realized emptiness. KS for example has no true definition of emptiness like Buddhism. Nothing beyond universal consciousness or Siva. Yet Buddhism does talk about the realization of the male and female. Male being void, female being form.



While the Buddha did not directly mention chakras his meditation practices did have one focus on certain areas of the body that correspond to chakras.

Later Buddha's did add practices that focus on chakras like Inner Fire.

Buddhism is an evolving system of practices. Even Theravada has added new practices that were not taught by the Buddha.

It is the insights from the practices that matter much more than if The Buddha taught some particular practice or not.

..........

[BigJohn]

[quote=sky123]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

To understand the prayer, I think it is important to understand first the context of "heaven". As Jesus further describes below in Luke, heaven is not some far off land...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Heaven is found within (or thru you), so Our Father is always "with us". A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed.



Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This line is reminder that the kingdom of heaven is not some far away land, but here in the present moment. Or, as other traditions describe nirvana and samsara are ultimately the same. And if we are one with God's will, we realize that and the kingdom "comes"...

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭17‬ KJV)



Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

A few words of consideration on what we need for our "daily bread" or sustenance...

Matthew 4:1-4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And...

John 5:53-58

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Here are a couple of verses which I think might help with putting the line in context...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ KJV)

As the above says, God does not tempt anyone to wrongdoing. But, if one thinks of the translation of temptation more like "trials"...

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13‬ KJV)

It takes on a different feel and meaning.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen [/QUOTE




' and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. '

I personally don't think this has been translated properly.

God wouldn't lead us into temptation, we sometime succumb to temptation, but God does not lead us. Mybe, do not let us fall into temptation or something similar works better. Does God test us or throw us into temptation and then sit back and watch how far we fall, don't think so.

Nice Thread JB.

I translate the Lord's prayer years ago.... there are hundreds of permutations that lead to a a huge number of possible translations.

[jonesboy]

[quote=BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

I translate the Lord's prayer years ago.... there are hundreds of permutations that lead to a a huge number of possible translations.

The above comes from a Mystical Christian tradition.

[ThatMan]

I just want to share with you that not just once I found myself reciting the Lord's prayer while having a bad out of body experience, the thing is that I was always able to recite the first four verses, because every single time I would woke up instantly.Now, one more thing, every time it happened, I felt that I was helped to be able to call for Christ, for the Father or even to recite the Lord's prayer.It's very hard to be fully in control when you have an OBE, imagine how hard it is to recite the Lord's prayer perfectly.

[sky]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

I just want to share with you that not just once I found myself reciting the Lord's prayer while having a bad out of body experience, the thing is that I was always able to recite the first four verses, because every single time I would woke up instantly.Now, one more thing, every time it happened, I felt that I was helped to be able to call for Christ, for the Father or even to recite the Lord's prayer.It's very hard to be fully in control when you have an OBE, imagine how hard it is to recite the Lord's prayer perfectly.

Which body is reciting the prayer, number one or number two?

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by sky123

Which body is reciting the prayer, number one or number two?

The astral body and I use my own voice... I know that I am helped, otherwise, I would not be able to do such things...

You know how I call the Creator in my dreams and in my OBEs? Father

Something changed in my innermost part of my being ( I never called the Creator this way, never, but lately I've been calling Him this way ), I just know that He is The Father of all and that He can help if something bad happens to me.

Some time ago I had this very bad OBE where this humanoid creature was moving me through the air in circles, its hands where on my legs, anyway, at some point, I fell down from its hands ( I could see my room perfectly and I could see my father sleeping and the TV running ) anyway, I tried to call my real father, but he didn't answer, I tried again and again but nothing, then I tried to call the Creator, I think this is the first time that I used the expression Father, when I did this, I woke up instantly.I usually wake up instantly when I call for Christ, or when I call for the Father or when I recite Lord's prayer.

You know what's strange? Very rarely I use Lord's prayer in real life (I can't even remember it correctly sometimes ), almost all the time I create my own prayers from my heart... This is really strange.

[jonesboy]

The most important point of the prayer is that it is a realization he is describing, not really something you just recite.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The most important point of the prayer is that it is a realization he is describing, not really something you just recite.

Yes, the realization of one word is more beneficial than reciting one hundred.

[BigJohn]

When it comes to the Lord's Prayer,
I generally get hung up on that "Art' guy!

Ask a person who just got done saying the Lord's Prayer
what they actually said, and you usually get a blank look.