No Self

[BlueSky]

In the recent past I have realized so much about what I call the fabric of life. I can see clearly that we are an expression coming forth from a relative nothingness and returning to that same relative nothingness is a journey that I see as life.



Lately though, I see something else and that is, for this fabric to exist, as I see it, then there cannot be anything about this expression called me that can contain what some call a soul, atman or even a higher self. We simply return to nothingness. Our existence is our being but it ends there.



Furthermore, it follows, to me, that this expression must be hardwired, predisposed to act the way it does and to think the way it does. There is nothing there to act or think. Even the act to ignore ones thoughts, since there is no one to have those thoughts and no one to ignore those thoughts, is basically a hard-wired response from an individual expression which follows its own path back to its source, relative nothingness.



I’m posting this here because what I’m suggesting seems to fall into Buddhism. No self, no souls, etc.



I’d be interested in any comments. Imagine life with no self, no improving, no choice, no afterlife. Who would want that? Are we all avoiding seeing that? Is this what The Buddha saw?



Here's the thing...I hope not! lol



Thanks for listening

[sky]

Originally Posted by Self

In the recent past I have realized so much about what I call the fabric of life. I can see clearly that we are an expression coming forth from a relative nothingness and returning to that same relative nothingness is a journey that I see as life.



Lately though, I see something else and that is, for this fabric to exist, as I see it, then there cannot be anything about this expression called me that can contain what some call a soul, atman or even a higher self. We simply return to nothingness. Our existence is our being but it ends there.



Furthermore, it follows, to me, that this expression must be hardwired, predisposed to act the way it does and to think the way it does. There is nothing there to act or think. Even the act to ignore ones thoughts, since there is no one to have those thoughts and no one to ignore those thoughts, is basically a hard-wired response from an individual expression which follows its own path back to its source, relative nothingness.



I’m posting this here because what I’m suggesting seems to fall into Buddhism. No self, no souls, etc.



I’d be interested in any comments. Imagine life with no self, no improving, no choice, no afterlife. Who would want that? Are we all avoiding seeing that? Is this what The Buddha saw?



Here's the thing...I hope not! lol



Thanks for listening

The Buddha says in no uncertain terms in his last sutra, the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra:

"Those who abandon the teaching given in this sutra concerning the tathagata-garbha [i.e. the Buddha-Essence in beings or True Self] are just like cattle. For example, just as people who intend to commit suicide will cause themselves extreme misery, similarly you should know that those ungrateful people who reject the tathagata-garbha and teach non-Self cause themselves extreme misery."



If you think of ' Not Self ' rather than 'No/None Self ' it is easier to understand. The Buddha taught of our true self, the real self not the worldly self that we believe is who we are.

[RyanWind]

I can give my opinion based on my perception:

Nothingness is an idea. So it too is dropped.

What I am seeking has nothing to do with ideas, even ideas about what it is. It's just where I want to be, in this present moment, and what I want to be a part of now. Sometimes I read posts about these kinds of topics, not really referring to this one of yours, but everything in the post sounds right but I feel there is something missing or wrong. I usually come to the conclusion that what is wrong is there is too much self in the posts. You know like , I, I, I,.....
They might be saying, I am nothing, which sounds good, but the post is full of I. So much concern for what they are experiencing or not experiencing. So much concern about themselves.

It's not that I get rid of myself or find myself or become nothing... these are all ideas. It's just that I simply drop ideas. If you try to imagine what this is like, you end up with all kinds of false beliefs and thoughts and concepts about it. It is nothing, simple, not a big deal at all. It is just letting go of the mental world in each moment. Take a deep breath, give up everything, all the religion, spiritual teachings, ideas of needing to be something or become something, and just be free. Free from ideas from others and free from your own ideas.

It's not that we are seeking nothing, because nothing is an idea. We just be present now with nothing else. So the ideas of not existing etc come from thought imagining what it will be like. Really we find we have never been more fully there or here. Thought and ideas are just things we focus on, if we stop focusing on them, we are still here.

The "nothing" refers to what we are as far as what one is responding with or interacting with. This too doesn't happen overnight or instantly. I can let go of ideas and the mental world and just be present, but self as ideas and the mental world doesn't suddenly give up and go away. It still tries to make itself known and the center of our attention. While we may be able to put some aspects of it away quite easily, other parts still worm their way in there and pretend to not be there as anything besides ones self.

So it may be a long journey, but you keep at it. Lose it pick it up back again. Over time, you get better at staying present in the now while not identified with the mental conceptual world.

It really can be an impossible thing to communicate because in it, nothing, as ideas or teachings, is a part of it. But then there is a "knowing" or "knowledge" present in it which is non verbal yet known. My advice is don't worry about what it is or what you are. Just be. It you let go of ideas, you let go of needing to define or explain it anyway.

You don't go away or disappear or become nothing. It will never be anything other than you. The only thing that changes is what you hold onto as you in each moment.

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.

Something else that pops up when this subject is discussed is ideas of right and wrong. People think, oh if I don't pay attention to or believe any of my thoughts, then I can do anything I want. There is no right or wrong, This is also just an idea. This is assuming knowledge of right and wrong only comes from thought, and this is not true. Our very being has a code of ethics and morality, compassion and empathy, and really it is thought, that can reason away this base of knowledge so that we justify immoral behaviors. Our unconditioned self is a good, moral thing, and it is the self that is created by conditioning and thought, that leads to immorality.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by sky123

The Buddha says in no uncertain terms in his last sutra, the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra:

"Those who abandon the teaching given in this sutra concerning the tathagata-garbha [i.e. the Buddha-Essence in beings or True Self] are just like cattle. For example, just as people who intend to commit suicide will cause themselves extreme misery, similarly you should know that those ungrateful people who reject the tathagata-garbha and teach non-Self cause themselves extreme misery."



If you think of ' Not Self ' rather than 'No/None Self ' it is easier to understand. The Buddha taught of our true self, the real self not the worldly self that we believe is who we are.

Thanks Sky123 for that new term Tathāgatagarbha. At a quick glance on the web it seems controversial as to what it means (go figure) lol.
Your quote says “those who abandon the teaching…” which to me means those who hear it for what it is and reject it or those who reject it without knowing what it is. The former sounds impossible so let’s assume it means those who reject it without knowing it.
I see that there is no one, no self, in my expression and also see that the seeing itself is part of that expression. It stops there.
You pointed out this teaching but it doesn’t negate what I see as not a part of my expression. It expands on it to something else that I do not understand. It would appear to be beyond understanding. To reject that which I don’t know would be foolish. To accept it would be equally as foolish. I can only accept what I see or don’t see in myself and if there is some embryo type essence or empty type being or whatever underneath this lack of essence referred to as Tathagatagarbha I see in myself, then it will follow.
Thanks for your post, it was very helpful

[sky]

Sabbasava-Sutta

The Sabbasava Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 2[4]) also mentions 16 questions which are seen as "unwise reflection" and lead to attachment to views relating to a*self.*

What am I? Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, did I become what in the past? What shall I be in future? How shall I be in future?Having been what, shall I become what in future? Whence came this person?

The Buddha states that it is unwise to be attached to both views of having and perceiving a self and views about not having a self. Any view which sees the self as "permanent, stable, everlasting, unchanging, remaining the same for ever and ever" is "becoming enmeshed in views, a jungle of views, a wilderness of views; scuffling in views, the agitation (struggle) of views, the fetter of views."

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

I can give my opinion based on my perception:

Nothingness is an idea. So it too is dropped.

What I am seeking has nothing to do with ideas, even ideas about what it is. It's just where I want to be, in this present moment, and what I want to be a part of now. Sometimes I read posts about these kinds of topics, not really referring to this one of yours, but everything in the post sounds right but I feel there is something missing or wrong. I usually come to the conclusion that what is wrong is there is too much self in the posts. You know like , I, I, I,.....
They might be saying, I am nothing, which sounds good, but the post is full of I. So much concern for what they are experiencing or not experiencing. So much concern about themselves.

It's not that I get rid of myself or find myself or become nothing... these are all ideas. It's just that I simply drop ideas. If you try to imagine what this is like, you end up with all kinds of false beliefs and thoughts and concepts about it. It is nothing, simple, not a big deal at all. It is just letting go of the mental world in each moment. Take a deep breath, give up everything, all the religion, spiritual teachings, ideas of needing to be something or become something, and just be free. Free from ideas from others and free from your own ideas.

It's not that we are seeking nothing, because nothing is an idea. We just be present now with nothing else. So the ideas of not existing etc come from thought imagining what it will be like. Really we find we have never been more fully there or here. Thought and ideas are just things we focus on, if we stop focusing on them, we are still here.

The "nothing" refers to what we are as far as what one is responding with or interacting with. This too doesn't happen overnight or instantly. I can let go of ideas and the mental world and just be present, but self as ideas and the mental world doesn't suddenly give up and go away. It still tries to make itself known and the center of our attention. While we may be able to put some aspects of it away quite easily, other parts still worm their way in there and pretend to not be there as anything besides ones self.

So it may be a long journey, but you keep at it. Lose it pick it up back again. Over time, you get better at staying present in the now while not identified with the mental conceptual world.

It really can be an impossible thing to communicate because in it, nothing, as ideas or teachings, is a part of it. But then there is a "knowing" or "knowledge" present in it which is non verbal yet known. My advice is don't worry about what it is or what you are. Just be. It you let go of ideas, you let go of needing to define or explain it anyway.

You don't go away or disappear or become nothing. It will never be anything other than you. The only thing that changes is what you hold onto as you in each moment.

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.

Something else that pops up when this subject is discussed is ideas of right and wrong. People think, oh if I don't pay attention to or believe any of my thoughts, then I can do anything I want. There is no right or wrong, This is also just an idea. This is assuming knowledge of right and wrong only comes from thought, and this is not true. Our very being has a code of ethics and morality, compassion and empathy, and really it is thought, that can reason away this base of knowledge so that we justify immoral behaviors. Our unconditioned self is a good, moral thing, and it is the self that is created by conditioning and thought, that leads to immorality.

Thanks Ryan but your post is just too far off topic to comment on. I want to discuss this with people who can relate. These are not ideas and yes there Is an I here just as there is a you experiencing the present but the difference for me is that this I is a part of the experience.

[RyanWind]

I can look at an apple. But I cannot look at myself. If I try to look at myself, every single thing I see will be an idea about myself, and I am not an idea. I am that which perceives all of the ideas that come and go.

Many masters have said, the only thing you cannot perceive is yourself. This is because you are that which perceives. By definition, if you see it, it is not you. You are that which sees.

This does not mean you don't exist. Who saw this belief that you don't exist?

Originally Posted by Self

I see that there is no one, no self, in my expression and also see that the seeing itself is part of that expression. It stops there.

Something had to be there that saw all of that. That was you. The apple is still perceived even when you drop all concepts and ideas about it. It you take your eyes off the apple yes it disappears, but you didn't, only you as apple disappeared, you then experience something else, whatever you are focusing on. Something or nothing.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

I can look at an apple. But I cannot look at myself. If I try to look at myself, every single thing I see will be an idea about myself, and I am not an idea. I am that which perceives all of the ideas that come and go.

Many masters have said, the only thing you cannot perceive is yourself. This is because you are that which perceives. By definition, if you see it, it is not you. You are that which sees.

This does not mean you don't exist. Who saw this belief that you don't exist?



Something had to be there that saw all of that. That was you. The apple is still perceived even when you drop all concepts and ideas about it. It you take your eyes off the apple yes it disappears, but you didn't, only you as apple disappeared, you then exist as something else, whatever you are focusing on. Something or nothing.

By saying you are that which sees, you leave no room to be other than or more than that which sees.

[kingfisher]

As I understand it, the Buddha was not making ontological statements. Again, he spoke of the Dharma as a raft, for passing over, not for grasping . Speculation concerning any "state of being" is just that, speculation, and will tend to preclude actually walking the path.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

As I understand it, the Buddha was not making ontological statements. Again, he spoke of the Dharma as a raft, for passing over, not for grasping . Speculation concerning any "state of being" is just that, speculation, and will tend to preclude actually walking the path.

That makes sense with what I am saying here.