enlightenment and the ultimacy of everything

[happy soul]

There's another way to look at enlightenment, in which it doesn't require concepts but is more of a direct realization of the ultimacy of things. You could use the ideas of 'ultimacy' and 'ultimate reality' interchangeablely, in that the ultimacy of life, in a sense, IS ultimate reality. Usually when we contemplate ultimate reality, we think of it in a way that requires CONCEPTS, whether scientific or religious, but Buddha and other masters have taught that no such concepts are necessary for the realization of ultimate reality, which is one way of defining enlightenment.

Basically, it's like we take the 'ultimacy' of everything for granted. That's one way of defining being 'asleep' - not being 'awake'.

Think about how amazing life is, what a miracle it is that we exist at all. WE EXIST! It's an extraordinary thing, a total miracle. You see, we take it for granted.

We take for granted how divine LOVE is and how sacred that which lives is. We aren't fully conscious of the ultimacy of physical objects such as a car, a pencil, the nose on our face - or any existing phenomenon.

The thing is that we ALREADY know of this ultimacy - we ALREADY have 'enlightenment'. Secondly, the ultimacy I'm describing is more or less OBVIOUS. It's just that we don't consciously think about it often. We keep that awareness at bay, at a safe distance, out of our conscious awareness.

We've brainwashed, hypnotized, each other not to consciously recognize it. It's the norm, the mindset of the masses, a taboo that defines collective consciousness.

[wstein]

Concepts are required for knowing enlightenment, not for being enlightened.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by wstein

Concepts are required for knowing enlightenment, not for being enlightened.

whats the difference?

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by happy soul

There's another way to look at enlightenment, in which it doesn't require concepts but is more of a direct realization of the ultimacy of things. You could use the ideas of 'ultimacy' and 'ultimate reality' interchangeablely, in that the ultimacy of life, in a sense, IS ultimate reality. Usually when we contemplate ultimate reality, we think of it in a way that requires CONCEPTS, whether scientific or religious, but Buddha and other masters have taught that no such concepts are necessary for the realization of ultimate reality, which is one way of defining enlightenment.

Basically, it's like we take the 'ultimacy' of everything for granted. That's one way of defining being 'asleep' - not being 'awake'.

Think about how amazing life is, what a miracle it is that we exist at all. WE EXIST! It's an extraordinary thing, a total miracle. You see, we take it for granted.

We take for granted how divine LOVE is and how sacred that which lives is. We aren't fully conscious of the ultimacy of physical objects such as a car, a pencil, the nose on our face - or any existing phenomenon.

The thing is that we ALREADY know of this ultimacy - we ALREADY have 'enlightenment'. Secondly, the ultimacy I'm describing is more or less OBVIOUS. It's just that we don't consciously think about it often. We keep that awareness at bay, at a safe distance, out of our conscious awareness.

We've brainwashed, hypnotized, each other not to consciously recognize it. It's the norm, the mindset of the masses, a taboo that defines collective consciousness.

If a person could see the infinity that is the universe they would see like you do. However what is the point of knowing the infinity of the universe? Seems to me that it's only good for one thing, overcoming the fear of death and anxiety related to the fear of death. Beyond that it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose.

I saw it but I don't really care these days. The universe is big. There are infinite realities. I can go anywhere I want, do anything I want to do, be anything I want to be. So what though. What is to be found in every single thing in the omegaverse (just made that up lol), the infinite self. the same sense of self is found in everything.

the only thing worth finding is everywhere. seems to me everything is kind of pointless. a dancing game or something like that. fun but not much of a higher purpose beyond fun.

Edit: actually the journey is fun and seems to be the purpose, what I meant is there is no thing or destination that is the purpose. a destinationless and infinite journey of upward progression from space consciousness to solid consciousness upward to biological consciousness and finally energy/God consciousness.

happy trails friend. I know the journey is starting to get pretty interesting for me haha. Hope it goes well for you too.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by wstein

Concepts are required for knowing enlightenment, not for being enlightened.

Originally Posted by shivatar

whats the difference?

Knowing is an awareness of something; information, memory, experience (noun). It is in the domain of mind/consciousness. This knowing is expressed as concepts.

Being is a state, an expression (verb), or a presence.

You may still know inner silence from having meditated earlier but now are caught up in the crises at hand, mind chatter at full volume. The concepts for this are something along the line of: 'I' 'was' 'without' a 'voice' 'talking' 'in' 'my' 'head'.

One could also just sit still daydreaming one day and experience inner silence without any knowledge of what that experience is. That moment may pass without you ever being aware of it. One reached that state without ever knowing they were in that state.

Similarly, one can 'exist' in an enlightened state without having to know they are enlightened.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

If a person could see the infinity that is the universe they would see like you do. However what is the point of knowing the infinity of the universe? Seems to me that it's only good for one thing, overcoming the fear of death and anxiety related to the fear of death. Beyond that it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose.

I saw it but I don't really care these days. The universe is big. There are infinite realities. I can go anywhere I want, do anything I want to do, be anything I want to be. So what though. What is to be found in every single thing in the omegaverse (just made that up lol), the infinite self. the same sense of self is found in everything.

the only thing worth finding is everywhere. seems to me everything is kind of pointless. a dancing game or something like that. fun but not much of a higher purpose beyond fun.

Edit: actually the journey is fun and seems to be the purpose, what I meant is there is no thing or destination that is the purpose. a destinationless and infinite journey of upward progression from space consciousness to solid consciousness upward to biological consciousness and finally energy/God consciousness.

happy trails friend. I know the journey is starting to get pretty interesting for me haha. Hope it goes well for you too.

Pretty much this.

I cannot see the point of it either besides allaying the fear of death and the 'promise' of what exists beyond it, if anything, but that depends solely upon trust in the Infinite Reality.

Full awareness within existence is the ultimate 'mindful' state, yet once we have achieved it, this enlightenment thing seems pretty much overrated in regards to those concepts we had hitherto romanticised about, when all it is, is just a different way of seeing things - quite ambivalent, without attachment, without thought nor feeling - like life is just a movie one is watching without any direct involvement, even if one is 'involved'.....we are just actors, playing a part, as Shakespeare said.

The trick is, not to make this state 'oh so boring' as it tends to get and allow equanimity, detachment and surreal depersonalisation to cloud over whatever bliss there is by sucking everything into that 'black hole' along with it - even any enjoyment of the experience when the 'enjoyer' no longer exists - there is no ego to experience any emotion, therefore emotions don't exist either and whatever arises is just the memory or samskara from a previous emotional recollection and then one wonders if boredom is also an emotion. =/

For about six months I've tried to recapture some kind of spiritual high...I mean, I felt something, but it was so brief...so fleeting...and now, just 'bleh' remains in its place. I cannot get exited or aroused by anything, nothing makes me happy...nothing makes me sad, upset or fearful either...I've even taken unconditional love for granted...taken God for granted that it is always 'there' yet any notion of 'I' am not, so what can feel it?

It's a sorry state of affairs, so I have just buried my head in forbidden history, sacred geometry and alchemy to try and make sense of the senseless...to find myself like Archimedes in the bathtub of the universe just to keep the mind from turning inward once more...so, I can go and massage old ladies...or study the emerald tablets of Thoth...the latter sounds much better....but it's times like these I wish I had access to psylocybin.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by wstein

Knowing is an awareness of something; information, memory, experience (noun). It is in the domain of mind/consciousness. This knowing is expressed as concepts.

Being is a state, an expression (verb), or a presence.

You may still know inner silence from having meditated earlier but now are caught up in the crises at hand, mind chatter at full volume. The concepts for this are something along the line of: 'I' 'was' 'without' a 'voice' 'talking' 'in' 'my' 'head'.

One could also just sit still daydreaming one day and experience inner silence without any knowledge of what that experience is. That moment may pass without you ever being aware of it. One reached that state without ever knowing they were in that state.

Similarly, one can 'exist' in an enlightened state without having to know they are enlightened.

what does inner silence feel like?
and how can one be enlightened or feel inner silence and not know it? wouldn't it be clear and pretty blissful or peaceful?

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Pretty much this.

I cannot see the point of it either besides allaying the fear of death and the 'promise' of what exists beyond it, if anything, but that depends solely upon trust in the Infinite Reality.

Full awareness within existence is the ultimate 'mindful' state, yet once we have achieved it, this enlightenment thing seems pretty much overrated in regards to those concepts we had hitherto romanticised about, when all it is, is just a different way of seeing things - quite ambivalent, without attachment, without thought nor feeling - like life is just a movie one is watching without any direct involvement, even if one is 'involved'.....we are just actors, playing a part, as Shakespeare said.

The trick is, not to make this state 'oh so boring' as it tends to get and allow equanimity, detachment and surreal depersonalisation to cloud over whatever bliss there is by sucking everything into that 'black hole' along with it - even any enjoyment of the experience when the 'enjoyer' no longer exists - there is no ego to experience any emotion, therefore emotions don't exist either and whatever arises is just the memory or samskara from a previous emotional recollection and then one wonders if boredom is also an emotion. =/

For about six months I've tried to recapture some kind of spiritual high...I mean, I felt something, but it was so brief...so fleeting...and now, just 'bleh' remains in its place. I cannot get exited or aroused by anything, nothing makes me happy...nothing makes me sad, upset or fearful either...I've even taken unconditional love for granted...taken God for granted that it is always 'there' yet any notion of 'I' am not, so what can feel it?

It's a sorry state of affairs, so I have just buried my head in forbidden history, sacred geometry and alchemy to try and make sense of the senseless...to find myself like Archimedes in the bathtub of the universe just to keep the mind from turning inward once more...so, I can go and massage old ladies...or study the emerald tablets of Thoth...the latter sounds much better....but it's times like these I wish I had access to psylocybin.

I think you are facing adaption. maybe you need some variety and a new doorway to the infinite?

same old game gets old after some amount of time.

haha just buy a spore kit online, its legal, then grow them yourself. makes it a more spiritual experience when you grow your own too. very enlightened. never done it myself though just heard from friends.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

I think you are facing adaption. maybe you need some variety and a new doorway to the infinite?

same old game gets old after some amount of time.

haha just buy a spore kit online, its legal, then grow them yourself. makes it a more spiritual experience when you grow your own too. very enlightened. never done it myself though just heard from friends.

Yes...adaption, that's it.

Australia, being the total 'nanny country' that it is, I'm exploring Darkroom Meditation to increase melatonin, holotropic breathwork and techniques to 'decalcify' my pineal gland....I listened to some binaural beats and isochronic tones and all that did, was make me sleepy. lol

I also worry that any 'new doorway' that leads to the infinite will end up with the same result, different means...maybe it's just a long phase, another 'Dark Night of the Soul' that will resolve itself with time.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by shivatar

what does inner silence feel like?

Emotionally, it doesn't feel like anything. What is evident (from the 'normal' state) is a lack of disembodied voices speaking in your head.

Its most noticeable when the last voice stops. Its not unlike getting in a car in the city and driving to the country. Its only when you step out of the car do you realized the background sounds are gone.

Originally Posted by shivatar

how can one be enlightened or feel inner silence and not know it? wouldn't it be clear and pretty blissful or peaceful?

If you are in a state for a long time, you tends to pay less attention to it. Are you still noticing where the weight of your clothes is on your body?

The most obvious case of missing entering such a state is when you are distracted by something else when you get in that state. For instance say you are white water rafting through a section of rapids. Its unlikely you are paying any attention to your internal state. Extreme example I know but illustrates the point.

Another case where one might not be aware is when its always been that way. For instance, you might not realize for many years that you are color blind. Its only when some one else notices something you can not see do you know.