Strong opinion or trolling?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I reckon the difference between strong opinion and trolling is the attitude
behind the message; whether it's supported by a strong argument or fact
(in so far as anything can be a fact), and the sincerity of the proposition.
Trolls usually kick back at ideas while presenting no worthwhile alternative.
They usually attack rather than debate or discuss. Their insincerity is
quickly apparent.

Jesus was hugely anti-establishment, a vehement Jewish reformer casting
doubt on at least a couple of millennia of scriptures and practices rather
than core belief (although he attacked that too, something certainly missed in
Constantine's New Testament).

But you're right. There are many cases these very days of minor Jesuses
appearing, ostracised and/or arrested for powerful messages against the
establishment. You see it in "politics" often when politicians with their vested interests don't listen to their electorate and protest builds up.

Thankfully on a spiritual forum most members are aware that nothing is
exact in spirituality where beliefs are individual (even among the religious,
experiences are individual) so opinion is just that. Opinion. There are no facts (as in more than one observer can observe the phenomenon with metered precision).

But.... (I've said this before) just let a spiritual message come up that
threatens the establishment then unless there's a revolution it will be
stamped out.
♥

Well said Lorelyn!

To to the OP, I agree that blatant trolls should be ignored, those with insults flying and offering no opportunity for conversation...But I would say, right up to the very edge of ignore, IMO they should be welcomed and engaged to the fullest extent possible. Even though it may be difficult, as we all know. Not every insult is blatant...many are sideways or may turn bitter due to delivery with a lack of understanding or compassion.

But I say there's some merit to it all, up to and unless you come the realisation that you may just not be able to meaningfully discuss with them at that time. In which case, perhaps I would still favour simply withdrawing from an active exchange but still allowing for them to present their views. Even if unpopular and certainly including all the controversial and anti-establishment views. That's why I don't believe in using the "ignore" feature, on principle, if you will. I can always mentally skip over something if it was just that weird or wacky.

I know some will disagree but IMO we absolutely need all that. We need to be reminded of the differences and to honour them...that last is so crucial, even when it's not easy or when we're really just not exactly sure how or where to meet them. It's where we find our deepest humanity...not in condemning others (though perhaps some gentle or even firm reminders are in order at times, LOL...), but rather in saying, could you elaborate a bit? Or I see what you're saying, but what about this or have you also considered that? And then perhaps, it's been a good or interesting discussion and thanks for your thoughts.

Also...much of it is in the turn of phrase we trot out...and so again, we may reflect on that and gain something. What is the difference between a strong opinion (which we hold but may or may not share) and a strong conviction, which we may or may not verbalise? Not necessarily so much, except that one may be used in a pejorative manner by some to put others down (he or she is opinionated or has "strong opinions" about what matters to them)...whilst it's probably ok if you voice that you are a person of "strong convictions", eh? Hahaha

Somehow, I've always felt that a large portion of what is so good about SF is the fact that so many can come here and be heard. And hopefully, received with kindness or at least with courtesy...even if they are -- perhaps especially if they are -- insurrectionists and anti-establishment in some way. Absolutely, distance from centre gives perspective, and I feel that I nearly always have something to learn from others. At the very least, I can learn more about where they are at in this moment.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by django

Some of our greatest spiritual figures disagreed completely with the status quo they found themselves in, and I'm thinking here of Jesus who spoke vehemently and often against the Scribes and Pharisees.

If he found himself alive today, he would be likely to be banned from these sorts of forums unless he learnt to shut up and just go his way quietly, of course in his day he was silenced by the authorities anyway by being crucified.

But the issue for me is what if someone has a strong opinion, and feels vehemently about it, realistically are they just required to learn to shut up, even if what they say might be true?

When Buddha disagreed with the spiritual teaching of his day he was a lot quieter about it AFAIK, he just took himself off and pursued his own path, I guess this is the better role model for us, to quietly pursue our own truth.

The greatest of spiritual figures come precisely for the intended purpose of changing the status quo, major course corrections, introducing urgent reforms, new means, etc.. In that context, human ignorance and inertia precipitating as resistance would be almost inevitable and often vigorous.

Silenced, banned by “the authorities”? Times have changed in a few thousand years Django. Today he would more likely at best be ignored and at worst not even recognized for Who/What He was representing. Just look at the anti-spiritual spirituality just on this site. And people are here because they presumably have an interest!

Re Buddha: Is that why people tried to kill him and his successors?

What it all comes down to is the Will of the Highest.

If the Will of the Highest, e.g., the dynamic Truth Consciousness, is behind the manifestation in the physical in and through any particular World Teacher, and that Truth/Vision/Will would not only include what, but when and how any spiritual figure would go about what they were charged with accomplishing...

by definition, how can that be ‘trolling’?

Although from the pov of inertia and obstinate resistance it would at first seem that way.


~ J

[baro-san]

Originally Posted by django

Some of our greatest spiritual figures disagreed completely with the status quo they found themselves in, and I'm thinking here of Jesus who spoke vehemently and often against the Scribes and Pharisees.

If he found himself alive today, he would be likely to be banned from these sorts of forums unless he learnt to shut up and just go his way quietly, of course in his day he was silenced by the authorities anyway by being crucified.

But the issue for me is what if someone has a strong opinion, and feels vehemently about it, realistically are they just required to learn to shut up, even if what they say might be true?

When Buddha disagreed with the spiritual teaching of his day he was a lot quieter about it AFAIK, he just took himself off and pursued his own path, I guess this is the better role model for us, to quietly pursue our own truth.

One's troll in another's truth speaker. One's hero is another's terrorist. An intestinal worm's paradise is ...

A guaranteed way to make mistakes is to live in fear that you'll make a mistake. Some might say that is due to the law of attraction ...

I try to always do what I think is right. I don't compromise for the sake of compromising, but I'm always aware that I have my limitations, I may not have all the data, I may be biased, hence I can be wrong. When I reach a different conclusion, I change my opinion accordingly.

So if it looks like a troll, and quacks like a troll, I'll treat it like a troll.

I don't think accepting all the trolls to avoid the risk of quashing a saint, is better for me or the human race. If one's a saint, eventually the truth will come out, independently of my perception, and my actions.

Karma will take care of my thoughts, desires and actions. Isn't it worse to accumulate bad karma by mindlessly following others?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Silenced, banned by “the authorities”? Times have changed in a few thousand years Django. Today he would more likely at best be ignored and at worst not even recognized for Who/What He was representing. Just look at the anti-spiritual spirituality just on this site. And people are here because they presumably have an interest!
~ J

YES! So much of this!

Then, Jesus may wonder if he should continue teaching his message at all if nobody at all was paying attention and he was only being ignored...

It's like nobody gives a damn about anything anymore and everybody is just peeing against the wind.

You go on any social media site and see any video or what have you and those who are smart, will close off any replies to it, lest they get flamed to hell and back only because of the anonymity the internet provides and for NO other reason.

Anonymity brings out the very worst in human nature. You can see what people are like deep-down online and their souls are rotten to the very core.

[Jyotir]

Hi Necromancer,

In the case of such spiritual figures, especially an avatar, it's important to remember that they are totally surrendered to the Divine Will, and therefore not working for the Ignorance. Therefore 'quitting' isn't an option.

In the case of Jesus there was such a pre-ordained plan that made it virtually impossible to ignore Him.

~ J

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi Necromancer,

In the case of such spiritual figures, especially an avatar, it's important to remember that they are totally surrendered to the Divine Will, and therefore not working for the Ignorance. Therefore 'quitting' isn't an option.

In the case of Jesus there was such a pre-ordained plan that made it virtually impossible to ignore Him.

~ J

If there was a pre-ordained plan that Jesus wouldn't be ignored, whyfore did you say that people would ignore him if he was born today?

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I have recently learned the difference between a strong opinion and trolling.

A strong opinion is just that and others will usually say 'in my opinion' or 'this is what I believe' or 'it has been my experience' and I'm very cool with that. I like it.

Trolling on the other hand is presenting an opinion as a general fact, like saying "Jesus did not exist! he is only a myth" and "that's a load of woo/bee ess and you are stupid if you believe it" and questioning my sanity or presenting ad hominem statements for mine and others beliefs.

During the past week on here, I have learned how to tell the difference.

If a person presents their argument in such a way they realise it's only one opinion of many, I am very tolerant and I will listen, but if they make it the be-all and end-all of it, they'll find their way onto my ignore list very quickly.

Yes...

I quickly learned everyone's path is different on many levels that i overlooked foolishly in my "knowing". All i can do is offer my own experiences and beliefs. I also have been learning that the more i learn the more i realize I'm wrong. Knowing how wrong I've been before, how can i choose to think what i know now is correct or the only truth? Hence me only offering my current perspective.

When it comes to trolls and those individuals that are hell bent on bringing another into their belief system out of "need and desire" i see them as just that need and desire. as of late i have been unsubscribing. But at one point i didn't i took part in the argument. because i was still learning something about myself and still am. but no longer feel the need to engage in an argument surrounded by lack of self awareness. in other words i needed those who force their opinion on me to realize i was doing the same or fighting it because of past experiences i didn't know need addressing.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

Yes...

I quickly learned everyone's path is different on many levels that i overlooked foolishly in my "knowing". All i can do is offer my own experiences and beliefs. I also have been learning that the more i learn the more i realize I'm wrong. Knowing how wrong I've been before, how can i choose to think what i know now is correct or the only truth? Hence me only offering my current perspective.

When it comes to trolls and those individuals that are hell bent on bringing another into their belief system out of "need and desire" i see them as just that need and desire. as of late i have been unsubscribing. But at one point i didn't i took part in the argument. because i was still learning something about myself and still am. but no longer feel the need to engage in an argument surrounded by lack of self awareness. in other words i needed those who force their opinion on me to realize i was doing the same or fighting it because of past experiences i didn't know need addressing.

I also think that on a medium like the internet, where we cannot gauge another's vocal tone, facial expression, body language and the like, a lot of inference occurs from the language alone and people will make hasty judgments based upon that inference.

There have been times when I may speak from a deep conviction or speak emphatically and to others, it comes across as being 'arrogant' or 'pushy' or what have you when that's not my intention at all!

Lately I have been speaking about my current experiences from the heart, only to have others say that I am being 'narcissistic', 'selfish', 'inconsiderate', 'making it all about me'.

So I try to be less selfish and then I am 'aloof', 'cold', 'impersonal' 'misunderstanding'...

One cannot bloody win!

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I also think that on a medium like the internet, where we cannot gauge another's vocal tone, facial expression, body language and the like, a lot of inference occurs from the language alone and people will make hasty judgments based upon that inference.

There have been times when I may speak from a deep conviction or speak emphatically and to others, it comes across as being 'arrogant' or 'pushy' or what have you when that's not my intention at all!

Lately I have been speaking about my current experiences from the heart, only to have others say that I am being 'narcissistic', 'selfish', 'inconsiderate', 'making it all about me'.

So I try to be less selfish and then I am 'aloof', 'cold', 'impersonal' 'misunderstanding'...

One cannot bloody win!

Exactly how i feel and why i feel more drawn to conversation over the phone or more preferably in person lately. More can be learned these ways.. for myself at least.

One thing I have learned being on this forum is diplomatic speaking
.