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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #41  
Old 18-01-2020, 11:56 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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The 10 Most Ridiculous Scientific Studies ... ("Time")

Quote:
  1. Study shows beneficial effect of electric fans in extreme heat and humidity
  2. Study shows benefit of higher quality screening colonoscopies
  3. Holding on to the blues: Depressed individuals may fail to decrease sadness
  4. Quitting smoking after heart attack reduces chest pain, improves quality of life
  5. Older workers bring valuable knowledge to the job
  6. Being homeless is bad for your health
  7. The more time a person lives under a democracy, the more likely she or he is to support democracy
  8. Statistical analysis reveals Mexican drug war increased homicide rates
  9. Middle-aged congenital heart disease survivors may need special care
  10. Scientists Discover a Difference Between the Sexes
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Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #42  
Old 19-01-2020, 03:17 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Just fact.

Sincere thanks...

Namaste,

Jl
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  #43  
Old 19-01-2020, 06:31 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Science looks for the causes of epilepsy and mental health issues in the physical body and finds that there may be certain imbalances which relate to these problems. The philosophy of Yoga considers the human being quite differently, so epilepsy and mental health issues may have their origins in the etheric or mental bodies of a human being.

Feel free to show us the evidence that epilepsy is caused by an “etheric” body or by demons. If you can’t then it’s just a matter of faith. I know you still cannot grasp parsimony which is why you will naturally cop out with the claim that a lack of belief in demons is a belief too, which is an error in logic. You should know that the burden of proof lies with you though. So lets see what proof you have (?).
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  #44  
Old 19-01-2020, 09:01 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
Altair,

Excellent points you've raised, which support my contention that the answers to problems in science and religion come from correcting the perspective which generates its appearance as a problem (TRUTH). To answer your specific question above, I invite you to see what I stated to another SF poster who asked a similar question:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...8&postcount=22

No matter how well stated, 2 +2= 5 will always generate a problem in perspective (error) until the perspective, itself, is corrected to reveal that 2 + 2 = 4, even before the equation is computed.....

"Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things." http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...44&postcount=1

Altair, these perspectives changed my life.

Hope they can help you, too.

Thanks Guthrio. I'm afraid I don't really grasp what you're saying though.
You refer to post #22, but I don't see the practicality in what you say...
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  #45  
Old 19-01-2020, 03:03 PM
guthrio guthrio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Thanks Guthrio. I'm afraid I don't really grasp what you're saying though.
You refer to post #22, but I don't see the practicality in what you say...

Altair,

Sorry for the confusion. The point I was trying to make is this:

When "For thousands of years people thought those with epilepsy and mental health issues were possessed by nasty demons. Then modern science began to understand that there are physiological explanations. Second, for thousands of years people believed in creationism, and that all plants and animals were fixed and there at the start. We now know from studies into genetics and fossils that this is not the case, not to mention it would be ecologically impossible."....

Those who thought that way were laboring under the false impression that "2+2=5", but they did not know it until they learned, (as we ALL must learn) that the Truth was staring them in the face all the while.

In other words, our progress, individually, collectively, scientifically, and spiritually, depends upon understanding the Truth that 2+2 has always equalled 4...and KNOWING it.

The "we now know" part of the equation is the part we must find out for ourselves. It CANNOT be done by others for us.

Both Science and Religion have yet to figure out what's been staring them in the face. That's why all the false starts, fights, misunderstandings, and yes, both scientific as well as religious dogma have crippled the progress of their respective efforts ever since their practitioners did not know this.

Hence, "Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas, but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already established order of things."

That's what post #22 was all about. Nothing is more practical than that. Do you see?

Hope this helps!
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“Why, that’s true! I am a perfect, unlimited gull!” Jonathan opened his eyes asking, "Where are we?” The Elder Chiang said, “We’re on some planet with a green sky and a double star for a sun.” Jonathan made a scree of delight. “IT WORKS!" “Well, of course it works, Jon,” said Chiang. “It always works, when you know what you’re doing." (and even when you don't)
http://csermelyblog.tehetsegpont.hu/...ir%C3%A1ly.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COt1n3jDqA&t=19s

Last edited by guthrio : 19-01-2020 at 04:10 PM. Reason: clarify inputs
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  #46  
Old 19-01-2020, 04:33 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Feel free to show us the evidence that epilepsy is caused by an “etheric” body or by demons. If you can’t then it’s just a matter of faith. I know you still cannot grasp parsimony which is why you will naturally cop out with the claim that a lack of belief in demons is a belief too, which is an error in logic. You should know that the burden of proof lies with you though. So lets see what proof you have (?).

Did I ever mention anything about demons? What do demons have to do with epilepsy?

I suggest that the burden of proof lies with science. They may show that certain physiological conditions are present in those with epilepsy but this is not the same as proving that these physiological conditions cause epilepsy. The cause may lie elsewhere, manifesting as physiological conditions and epileptic fits.

Conventional medicine is unfortunately ineffective at curing many chronic conditions. Prescribing drugs to suppress the symptoms is not the same as curing the illness. If the person was cured then no further drugs would be needed, but all too often people are told they need to take particular drugs for the rest of their lives. This is because science only looks at the physiological conditions and misses the real deeper cause.

Time will tell. It may be that in fifty years time medicine will treat the whole person and not just the physical body. And people may look back at the medical practices of today (with over 4 billion prescriptions every year in the USA) and marvel at our current ignorance.

Peace
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  #47  
Old 19-01-2020, 07:27 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
Altair,
Sorry for the confusion. The point I was trying to make is this:
Those who thought that way were laboring under the false impression that "2+2=5", but they did not know it until they learned, (as we ALL must learn) that the Truth was staring them in the face all the while.
No worries, Guthrio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutrio
Both Science and Religion have yet to figure out what's been staring them in the face. That's why all the false starts, fights, misunderstandings, and yes, both scientific as well as religious dogma have crippled the progress of their respective efforts ever since their practitioners did not know this.
And what is it that stares both of them in their 'face'??

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
I suggest that the burden of proof lies with science. They may show that certain physiological conditions are present in those with epilepsy but this is not the same as proving that these physiological conditions cause epilepsy. The cause may lie elsewhere, manifesting as physiological conditions and epileptic fits.
I brought it up as an example where we're shown that science does not need religion to understand the world. I'm no expert on epilepsy but it seems there are ways to drastically reduce the seizures. Many other health issues have been cured with medicine and vaccinations. We can understand what causes the disease and it makes religious explanations for these phenomena unnecessary.

If people persist believing in alternative explanations they have that right, but when they make a truth claim that it is caused by a demon or an issue with an etheric body than the burden of proof lies with them. Or choose to say ''I believe/think there's more to it, but I can't make any Truth claim and I don't have proof. Sorry, can't be of further use.''. That's totally cool, but unfortunately not what usually occurs in religions.
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  #48  
Old 19-01-2020, 11:10 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I brought it up as an example where we're shown that science does not need religion to understand the world. I'm no expert on epilepsy but it seems there are ways to drastically reduce the seizures. Many other health issues have been cured with medicine and vaccinations. We can understand what causes the disease and it makes religious explanations for these phenomena unnecessary.

Perhaps we need to differentiate between religion and spiritual principles. Science does not need religion to understand the world, but until science embraces certain spiritual principles then its understanding of the world will always be limited.

For example, science will never grasp the nature of the physical universe until it takes into account other non-physical planes of existence, without which this physical universe would not exist.

Peace
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  #49  
Old 13-02-2020, 11:48 AM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"

But any Science or Religion without Truth is both lame AND blind.

Primarily the difference between religion and science is the method of inquiry for the Truth...such as to this question which encapsulates both: "Where does Creation end and You begin?" Asking such a question deeply as a scientist asks, and being unafraid to continue exploring the answers has nothing to do with either science or religion, and everything to do with the quality of the inquiry.

If by 'science', you mean the current paradigm within which scientific discovery is conducted by continually seeking answers to questions based on evidence that many of its practitioners (i.e. scientists) have validated, quantified, and repeated, then the answer to your question depends on what such "science" excludes from inquiry. Why? Because the practitioners of such 'science' do not recognize or understand the basis for 'evidence' that is outside their established paradigm. So they collectively (and reflexively) declare, "That event or phenomenon or concept (you fill in the blank) is not possible." Obviously such as stance is ripe for refutation by verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable evidence, even by rigorous adherence to the tenants of their OWN paradigm.

If by 'religion', you mean mean restoring, or “binding back” man’s apparent separation from his Creator, this, too, is most unhelpful in its current uses. Over the centuries, accomplishing this task has devolved into continuing attempts by misguided, self-made organizations wrestling (or paradoxically, even warring) with one another to control any ideas concerning the status of mankind and our relationship with our Creator, as vested in one form or another, to a privileged few. This mindset occurs, unfortunately, within all such groups who are primarily interested in maintaining their set of ideas as the ONLY way human beings are supposed to think, act, and live. I’ve come to understand that the basic premise of religion to “bind back” man’s relationship with our Creator, as practiced in the kinds of organizations I’ve described, is profoundly deficient. Why? Because mankind, created as the Spirit and Image of God, could never be, nor has ever been, separated from our Creator.

The history of mankind’s exploration and discovery of both scientific and religiousTruth is replete with examples of this or that scientist or religious prelate pontificating that this or that phenomena is impossible.

…..Only to be subsequently refuted by quantifiable, repeatable, verifiable evidence found by others with a set of different ideas that turned the paradigm of established scientific or religious consensus on its head.

Do the Heavens still rotate around the Earth? Not after Galileo. Are time and space separate from one another? Not after Einstein. Did you get your vaccines this year? Thanks to Pasteur you did. Is the Earth still flat? Ask Erikson, Columbus or Magellan for the answer. Do you have to read this answer in the dark? Not after a little help from one of Edison’s great ideas.

The Principles of Life uncovered by scientists that govern the relationship between mass, gravity, time, and the curvature of space to produce black holes have been in perfect operation just as eternally before their discovery of those principles as is the frequency upon which you enjoy listening to your favorite music; indeed, existent ever since the Universe cooled it into resonance along with the infinite gradations of frequency radiating beside it. These principles HAD to have been in operation just as perfectly BEFORE we discovered how to harness them into technology as they presently operate now. Or we would not be able to continue to utilize them for our technology today, much less build them into technological improvements tomorrow!

This has to include spiritual principles. (And they operate perfectly whether or not you doubt or have faith in the Universe’s operation) From the standpoint of principle, then, understand that spiritual knowledge HAS ALSO been in perfect operation just as eternally BEFORE as AFTER our discovery and application.

What we call miracles is NOT contravention of science. The accomplishment of miracles comes from a knowledge base that science has not yet incorporated into its paradigm of "what is possible". Such as stance is ripe for refutation by verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable evidence, as I mentioned before. The accomplishment of miracles is based on principles, too. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) just as scientists have been "discovering" new ways of looking at the Universe, you, too will be able to utilize these principles to accomplish the very same things.

Whether scientists, theologians, philosophers, or laypersons, we “see” through our ideas. We ALL are free to choose to believe that 2+2=5 for ETERNITY until we have acquired FOR OURSELVES the necessary knowledge of the immutable principle that correctly sums the answer.

Don't believe me? Try MAKING 2+2=5. Doesn't work, does it? We can ONLY accept its perfect operation, because we CANNOT change Truth.

In this manner, even a skeptical, hard-nosed, evidence-propounding scientist of the current paradigm of scientific discovery can learn to understand that the same Source Who created perfect principles of mathematics which operate undeviatingly to create ONLY 4 as the answer to 2+2, ALSO CREATED US out of perfect principles. Furthermore, he or she can validate that the correct application of such principles enables them to accomplish anything consistent with those principles.

You don’t need faith to do this.

You don’t need beliefs to do this.

You only need Truth to do this.

So where do you search for an answer?

As to scientific treatises and text books, we already know that ongoing discovery of ever-new data proceeds at such a pace that they are virtually obsolete shortly after they are published. How reliable is that?

As for religion and the books many faiths utilize to codify the tenants of their faith, consider that whether called the Qur'an, or the Torah, or the Bible, or the Upanishads, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the spoken traditions, Mother Nature, or what have you, these books are only tools, PREPARATORY INSTRUCTIONS for the real lessons. Though not the sacred "territory" they describe, such books can help point back to THAT inside of us from which the real inspiration, and direction comes. Their sole purpose is only to reflect the Divinity of the I AM within OURSELVES. A teacher or a book may tell you or show you what to do with them, but we don't really have to go anywhere for the answers we need. The "manual" is written (not "in"), but AS our very being. Our own being is the "book" to learn from.

As there is really no such place where "you" begin and where Creation ends; similarly, there is no dividing line between a "universal self” and an "individual self".

The 'individual' self and the 'universal' Self are One and the Same. "Individual" really means; cannot be divided from, or separated from, the One Whole I AM into parts.

"I, the individual self" is really the Whole expressing Itself as "a part of the Whole"....you.

God is the I AM of all. And beside Him there is no other.

I AM THAT I AM AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO OTHER.

He is Who we are! It is in Him and through Him that we have our Being.

Therefore, you can ask the Creator of Creation for the answer to ANY question. He is ever-present WITHIN you and will ALWAYS answer true. He IS Truth.

What if you DON’T BELIEVE OR ACCEPT THIS PERFECTION if you are a scientist and / or a religious person?

Neither our belief nor disbelief affects THE FACT that the ONLY way you can know this for yourself is to see the perfect principle in operation IN yourself. Understand, though, that you must scientifically uncover, know, operate, and practice the correct principles within the "laboratory" of YOURSELF! Exactly as any scientist learns to apply the principles of mathematics or any other scientific discipline. We can DO NO MORE than work WITH this infinite system of which we, ourselves, are an inseparable part. No attempt on our part to ignore, change, disbelieve, or rationalize affects its perfection in ANY way whatsoever !! 2+2 is ALWAYS 4.....perfectly.

If the accomplishment of miracles was NOT based on unchangeable principles, Jesus would not have been able to truthfully say "Greater things than these shall you also do." Not so just one person can do it, but so that anybody could do it, following relevant principles. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) you, too, will be able to utilize these principles to accomplish the very same things. Exactly as scientists apply knowledge gleaned from ‘previously undiscovered’ ways of looking at the Universe.

THAT is the part you won't hear from those who've sought to keep access to the Truth about ourselves limited to ONLY a self-approved “credo” of beliefs espoused in some religion's scripture, filled with sanctioned interpretations about it.

The true purpose of religion or science is not to bind us to "its" teachings or to "its" traditions,

.....but to lift us to go beyond them so that we can know and learn from the Real Teacher inside us all...

Again, when the quality of the inquiry is based on quantifying, repeating, and validating TRUE PRINCIPLES then the answers to our questions can EASILY be understood by theologians, scientists, historians, philosophers, and logicians, and laypersons alike. If we are REALLY serious about knowing, not just believing, the Truth of ourselves, we would gain the KNOW-ledge for OURSELVES, so that the scientific or spiritual Truth we seek proves or disproves Itself irrefutably within OUR OWN EXPERIENCE.

THAT'S what true science or religion is....
Hello guthrio,

I agree 100% with you.

The challenge I see, is that all the people of and in science, religion and spirituality limits themselves with thier own personal mental and emotional conditionings, manipulations, and beliefs, that are not based on truth.

I would like to one day, see science (that includes quantum physics/mechanics, and neuroscience), religion and spirituality all come to the same "conclusion" about the physical universe and beyond.
__________________
All we see with our mind and senses is Brahman, but we are not recognizing it as Brahman. And this is maya, ignorance, the cause of all suffering. Brahman is Objective truth/reality and our true inner objective self.
subjective
5: lacking in reality or substance : ILLUSORY
objective
1a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.
Definitions from merriam-webster.com
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  #50  
Old 13-02-2020, 10:25 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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What Do Demons Have To Do With Epilepsy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Did I ever mention anything about demons? What do demons have to do with epilepsy?

I suggest that the burden of proof lies with science. They may show that certain physiological conditions are present in those with epilepsy but this is not the same as proving that these physiological conditions cause epilepsy. The cause may lie elsewhere, manifesting as physiological conditions and epileptic fits.

Conventional medicine is unfortunately ineffective at curing many chronic conditions. Prescribing drugs to suppress the symptoms is not the same as curing the illness. If the person was cured then no further drugs would be needed, but all too often people are told they need to take particular drugs for the rest of their lives. This is because science only looks at the physiological conditions and misses the real deeper cause.

Time will tell. It may be that in fifty years time medicine will treat the whole person and not just the physical body. And people may look back at the medical practices of today (with over 4 billion prescriptions every year in the USA) and marvel at our current ignorance.

Peace
I am in total agreement with you.

Whilst this may not be "scientific", many psychosomatic illnesses which do not have any underlying organic or biological cause just cannot be treated by modern medicine because there is just no allopathic treatment for it!

Have you ever seen the image or statue of the dancing Shiva called Shiva Nataraja?

In those statues and pictures, Shiva is dancing upon the back of a small demon...the demon's name is Apasmara who not only represents spiritual ignorance, but also psychosomatic illness and epilepsy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apasmara
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987276/

Epilepsy is caused by the random firing of nerves in the brain...anti siezure medication can help control the symptoms in SOME patients leading to a better quality of life... cannabis oil can do likewise with less side effects, but cannabis oil is illegal in my country...so, archaic laws are suppressing treatment because the establishment has vested interests in "Big Pharma" at the total expense of those they are trying to treat.

Many will ridicule the "superstitious beliefs" of those who lived centuries ago in their treatment of chronic disease, but modern medicine can do NO better, yet admonishes anything that knows just as less (if not more) than they do.

While I personally don't have epilepsy, I DO have Somatoform Disorder which presents itself by way of functional neurological problems, siezures, restlessness, fibromyalgia etc and all the doctors have said is "it's all in your head" and "nothing we can do about it" and "learn to live with it" because they simply do not understand why it is happening because all my tests are "normal" otherwise.

So, what harm can going to a "witch doctor" do? What harm can having an "exorcism" do? It cannot make things any worse than they are.

Bottom line is that our ancestors knew how to treat psychological and neurological problems much better than modern medicine does because they treated the person holistically and not as a "Medicare number with a bunch of unrelated symptoms".

I mean, you go to a doctor with anything these days and they will tell you that it is caused by "stress" and then write a prescription for Lexapro and a referral to a clinical psychologist.
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