Prophet Suggested Punishments to Stop Mutual Killing …

[neil]

Originally Posted by acorn

Gotta check these batteries......my bullsh** meter is going haywire

I don't have to check the batteries in my "rudeness detection device".

Maybe you would you like to "ELABORATE"...if you have anything ""PROFOUND"" to add.

[sirius7]

Originally Posted by neil

You say the common sence approach is to understand it at its very basic level......& the basic level is ""LOVE"" in a holy form (prime creators reality of ""LOVE"")..

You say you really ""dislike"" arrogance & ignorance shown from different sides to undermine beliefs.

The emotional thoughts of "DISLIKING" something"" is borne from "anger", & anger is an "UNLOVING" emotion in it's self.

& unlovingness is not understanding it at it's basic core level.

I would say that you yourself are not knowing your chosen religion at it's basic core level either.

With sincere respect Neil.

Firstly, my interest joining this forum was not to debate religion but to explore and discover spirituality as received by other beliefs/faiths/thoughts. Having read this article however, I had to respond.

Love does not negate loving principles such as truth, honesty and justice. It's an act of hate and not love to purposefully maligned the foundational principles of others. And in Islam, the essential core belief is that of Tawheed. That Allah's oneness is not shared or lowered by any humanly value. That is the distinction therefore between lovers of Allah and others.

with respect and peace,

[sirius7]

Originally Posted by dattaswami

Prophet and Incarnation ... (Excerpt from message of Shri Datta Swami)

When a person says that He was sent by God as a messenger and that He has brought the message of the Lord, the following problem appears. When God is giving the message to that person, nobody has seen it. That person is the single witness. Now the only alternative left in order to believe that the Lord Himself gave the knowledge, is that we have to test the knowledge.

Well for that matter many has not seen God either but believe in Him faithfully. When God created the first human and the first generations of humans do you really think He would just leave them stumbling in the dark without guidance. We both believe that God Himself taught the knowledge but disagree on God being physically present –in the form of a man -for that knowledge to be transferred.

Had we seen the transfer of the knowledge from God to that person with our eyes, we need not have tested that knowledge. It must definitely have been divine knowledge. If we have to believe a statement of that person without the simultaneous universal perception, then we have to believe even a fraud person who utters the same statement.

There is a spiritual heart in Islam, known as the QALB. When it is good all else from the person is good. Sufism teaches the methodology of purifying one's heart and renouncing desires that are ungodly in nature. Goodly hearts are attached to each other and can recognize the pure natures of each other. It doesn't mean by any measure that evil hearts are dismissed rather many chances are given for guidance and redemption. In fact, there have been that such a strong conversion have occured by the permission of the creator that some evils hearts have transferred to become those that hold the strongest of faiths. Besides spiritual recognition as can be highly attested by a valued companion known as Abu Bakr r.a, other means of attestation of faith to the messenger has been noticed. Amongst of which are many narrations affirmed by various sources witnessing his honourable character of truth and honesty, additionally many reported miracles and highly regarded praiseworthy judgments. We elaborate further soon.

If you give us a piece of metal and say that is gold, since God gave it, we cannot believe it. Either we must have seen God giving it to you or we must analyze the metal. Moreover the knowledge is not like the piece of metal, which will not change by transfer. When a teacher explains a concept to somebody and asks him to deliver it to his students, it cannot be transferred as it is.

Which is why the Quran has been protected and many have memorized it's teachings precisely. And, why there is the science of ahaadiths, which have acted to preserve the teachings of the prophet pbuh with various grades of classification. However, the ahaadiths are the secondary sources of Islamic laws and beliefs

The transfer of knowledge consists of not only the concept but also the explanation. The concept might have been transferred but nobody other than that original teacher can give the same way of explanation of the concept by which the concept pierces into the heart. Therefore to propagate the divine knowledge, the Lord Himself comes down in a human form. Arjuna said the same in the Gita “Tvadanyah…” which means that except the Lord, nobody can preach the divine knowledge and clarify all spiritual doubts.

If, God Himself can come down into His creation, when He existed before without the need of a human body, what's now stopping the belief that God can feel pain like the rest of the creation or become weak as they are having embedded Himself in 'human form'. Before that ‘divine human’ where was the divine guidance for humanity that commenced creation . If you truly believe in the oneness of God then, it can’t be that difficult to understand His status and attributes cannot be fully shared or embodied by His creation. And, whatever goodness is reflected rather holds in a miniscule scope of the real.

Why can't the possibility exist that God who never needed humans or creation, appoint protection of His divine knowledge by whomsoever He choses. Why can't the original teacher bless the hearts of His creation to transmit the knowledge correctly? Surely, the one who call towards only one God and His message is different from the one who calls others to worship himself and his humanly deficient qualities that will cease to exist the day he leaves this world, only having his followers to recognize that such a 'divine person' isn't there to protect, bless or guide them but the creator remains ever so watchful of His creation in a place that none can harm or even reach except by His permission.

[sirius7]

This article should suffice in explanations, I'll be happy to help in any further understanding of the matter on prophethood and revelations.

God sent prophets primarily to guide humankind. They were humans of outstanding character that the people could emulate and look to for direction. They were not gods, demi-gods or saints; they were human beings charged with a difficult task. They at times possessed exceptional characteristics and qualities because they had to face unanticipated trials and tribulations in order to spread their message to worship Allah Alone.

In order to support His prophets Allah sometimes gave them extraordinary power. The Arabic word for miracle is mu’jizah meaning something unique that cannot be resisted. The miracles granted to the prophets were not only unique, they were also pertinent and understandable to the people to whom they were sent. When they saw a miracle they knew that it could not have been performed by an ordinary man.

In the time of Prophet Moses magic and sorcery were very common in the land of Egypt therefore Moses’ miracles, such as the staff turning into a serpent and his hand glowing, appealed to the people he was sent to guide. Prophet Moses’ encounter with the magicians at Pharaoh’s court explains the difference between magic and miracles. When the magicians whose serpents were a result of trickery and illusion (magic) saw Moses produce a real serpent they knew at once that it was a miracle. That is why they fell down and prostrated to Allah despite knowing that Pharaoh would have them put to death.

At the time of Jesus, the Israelites were very knowledgeable in the field of medicine thus Prophet Jesus’ miracles included returning sight to the blind, healing lepers and raising the dead.

“And you heal those born blind and the lepers by My leave. And behold! You bring forth the dead by My leave.” (Quran 5:10)

A miracle performed by Allah at the request of Prophet Jesus explains why Islam says that there are two types of miracles. Jesus asked Allah to provide him and his disciples with a table of food. This event is discussed in Surah 5 of the Quran entitled Al-Maidah (The Table Spread). It is an example of a miracle performed at the request, or suggestion of the people, in order to test the truth of the message.

“Jesus, son of Mary! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?” (Quran 5:112)

The disciples wanted to spread the message of Jesus by proclaiming the miracles they witnessed with their own eyes. Another example of this type of miracle is when Prophet Saleh’s people requested he bring out from behind the mountain a she-camel and her offspring.

“We sent the she-camel to Thamud as a clear sign, but they did her wrong.” (Quran 17:59)

The second type of miracle occurs without suggestion. It includes anything similar to what happened when the tree trunk cried and longed for Prophet Muhammad. The Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad contains many other miracles such as water flowing from his (Prophet Muhammad’s) fingers and trees deliberating shading him. Prophet (King) Solomon’s life was also filled with miracles and wonder. His kingdom and his abilities were beyond the capabilities of a human thus clearly showing that God provided him with miracles that made him stand out among others and confirmed his nobility and prophethood. His army consisted of battalions of men, jinn and birds. He was able to communicate with both birds and ants.

Prophet Muhammad was the recipient of one of the most amazing miracles we have the privilege to know about. After a very difficult year in which he lost both his uncle and his beloved first wife Khadijah, Prophet Muhammad was granted a major blessing and miracle that has become known as the Night Journey and Ascension. It was a physical journey by night from the Holy Masjid in Mecca to the Al-Aqsa masjid in Jerusalem. It culminated in his ascension from the heavens into the presence of God.

“Glorified be He Who took His slave on a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram to Masjid-al-Aqsa, the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him of Our signs. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.” (Quran 17:1)

In the 6th century, the Arabs, although primarily unlettered, were masters of the spoken word. Their poetry and prose was eloquent and a model of literary excellence. Even those who did not believe in Muhammad’s message knew the Quran was literature beyond compare. Thus the Quran itself is considered to be a miracle. Prophet Muhammad said, in an authentic hadith, “Every Prophet was given miracles on account of which their people believed; but, I have been given divine revelation which Allah has revealed to me, and I am hopeful that my followers will outnumber the followers of other prophets on Resurrection Day.”[1]

When Prophet Muhammad said this he was implying that the Quran should be considered a miracle. One who reads the Quran finds that its contents, including scientific, prophetic and historical information, all contribute to Quran’s status as a miracle. All prophets had miraculous aspects to their lives but because of his status as the last prophet, Prophet Muhammad’s dominant miracle, the Quran, is considered a living miracle. The Quran’s challenge to produce a chapter (the shortest being just 3 lines) similar to it still stands today.

[neil]

Originally Posted by sirius7

Love does not negate loving principles such as truth, honesty and justice. It's an act of hate and not love to purposefully maligned the foundational principles of others. And in Islam, the essential core belief is that of Tawheed. That Allah's oneness is not shared or lowered by any humanly value. That is the distinction therefore between lovers of Allah and others.

with respect and peace,

Im not quite sure of your meaning in your post..maybe you might like to explain a little more.

If you Are you saying that I am attacking him & his foundational principles, then you are incorrect.

You may need to re read our posts again to get the gist of it.

Please let me know how you go with it.

Regards neil

There are several devotees who belong to Nivrutti (path of liberation) and desire for the Lord in human form to see (Darsanam), to touch (Sparsanam), to hear the knowledge and clarify their doubts (Sambhashanam) and to live along with the Lord (Sahavasa) for achieving these three for a long time. The main purpose is preaching the divine knowledge and clarifying the doubts.

The statues or photos or energetic forms or space cannot preach the knowledge and that is against the universal observation (perception). Preaching of the knowledge by the human forms of the Lord like Krishna, Jesus etc is observed universally and accepted perception. Such universal observation is according to the rules of the nature. When something is possible through a simple way by following the rules of the nature, is it not foolish to do the same simple thing in the complicated way violating the rules of the nature?

When water is available in plenty from the tap, what is the necessity of producing water by forcing Hydrogen and Oxygen to react with the help of an electric arc? To show the production of the water by this reaction, this experiment can be performed once but not every time whenever water is required. To show the superpower of the Lord a statue or a photo or the energetic form or even formless space may talk once.

But to preach the spiritual knowledge continuously, the Lord need not talk continuously through statues or photos or energetic forms or space. Some devotee might have experienced such superpower in some place and in sometime. Such experience is not supported by simultaneous universal observation.

When you are seeing the moon in the sky, others are also observing the same moon simultaneously. This is required to authorize any experience. When this authorization is absent, your experience may be true or might have been due to some psychological disorder. The existence of such psychic experience is also observed in this world. Therefore we cannot isolate the possibility of these two cases in your experience

Therefore there is a necessity for the human form of the Lord and since the Lord is omnipotent, He is coming down in the human form. There cannot be any further argument on this point. I know you are worried that the Lord is modified into the human body and thus the unchangeable Lord has to be changed. Do not worry about this point, because the Lord is never modified into the human body. He only entered into the human body. The word ‘Asritam’ in the verse of Gita ‘Manushim tanumasritam’ means the entry of the Lord into the human body and not the modification of the Lord as a human body. Lord Krishna in Gita clarified this in the verse ‘Avyaktam Vyaktimapannam’.

If He is incapable of coming in human form, He cannot be omnipotent. One need not argue that though the Lord is capable, there is no necessity of such human form. You may not have that necessity. Are you the only human being on this whole earth? Have you taken the opinion of all the human beings to say like this?

Originally Posted by sirius7

We both believe that God Himself taught the knowledge but disagree on God being physically present –in the form of a man -for that knowledge to be transferred.

If, God Himself can come down into His creation, when He existed before without the need of a human body, what's now stopping the belief that God can feel pain like the rest of the creation or become weak as they are having embedded Himself in 'human form'. Before that ‘divine human’ where was the divine guidance for humanity that commenced creation . If you truly believe in the oneness of God then, it can’t be that difficult to understand His status and attributes cannot be fully shared or embodied by His creation. And, whatever goodness is reflected rather holds in a miniscule scope of the real.

Why can't the possibility exist that God who never needed humans or creation, appoint protection of His divine knowledge by whomsoever He choses. Why can't the original teacher bless the hearts of His creation to transmit the knowledge correctly? Surely, the one who call towards only one God and His message is different from the one who calls others to worship himself and his humanly deficient qualities that will cease to exist the day he leaves this world, only having his followers to recognize that such a 'divine person' isn't there to protect, bless or guide them but the creator remains ever so watchful of His creation in a place that none can harm or even reach except by His permission.