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  #161  
Old 31-05-2018, 01:16 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Well said, it rings true for me as well, and I think the last part bolded is the real lived 'refuge'.

Its interesting because a lot of people around me, are often curious about the nature of what is and how I approach it. When I say to them, I trust in the process of my life and what is, which means I know the best times for change and movement, taking action and so forth. Even in the most difficult circumstances or the most wonderful ones, for me its not so much about attaching to them as people often do in their actions, but more allow the process of those spaces to emerge more freely without struggle or resistance to the process. I have heard it said to me, "wow" I cant believe you would be able to endure that for so long. (that's just one example). But for me what is, is in everyway of life an opportunity to see myself and find myself in that space more deeply. Choosing change and action is not something that I choose to rush. For me the nature of listening to the movements in myself through peace and clarity, understanding and compassion for all beings, is where I can only move from now. People don't always understand this process, because often people choose and move in ways that often doesn't hold this deeper level of awareness. Not all, but most often many around me do and will. I have a tendency to be content and happy in my core now as I am, everywhere I am. Its like taking home with you everywhere you roam and home never leaves you. For me in this way, life is effortless in my connections and awareness, movements and process. There is much freedom within in this way of being. In some ways life is happening, I am participating and all is well as things are.




Quote:
I lived hard times over a NDE that put the fear of god in me, and I realised my little life fears were just symptoms of the deeper existential fear. It was maddening to know the certainty of death and terror when after I realised the path is just one step, right now, or not, and letting go is a totality... Still, when I touched the void there was a sense that be there something or be there nothing, full happiness has nothing to do with the experience at all. But still, there is a healing process in life, dull mind still can be sharpened, and skills can be attained through practice. When I went to do the meditation retreat my spiritual endeavours had gone into reverse into reverse. Instead of attaining that most high, that most high had to be brought right through the mind/body life form by becoming more deeply consciously aware. Ever since then my spiritual practice has been running the conscious attention through feeling from the hardest to the most subtle aspect. The lifeform is already entirely suffused in the greater awareness, with practice only bringing about the consciously aware direct knowing of that. I talk about the meditation as the conscious awareness of the truth in the moment as it is experienced in the way I experience it. It is as it is in this moment, with the only question being, are you aware? That answer exists only in direct conscious knowing now and now and now... having no substance in the 'now and forever'.

I understand, my process has been similar in facing the core of myself in this way of life and death meeting itself. Entering the void taught me how to let go in totality of myself. The process from that point moved into life to experience myself through that stream of deeper letting go. I don't do things in half measures. Someone last night said to me, you turn over every stone through the nature of yourself as deep as you go. He was right. I do. How can you not, if your aware in each moment as you say, each moment of now is a totality of letting go into myself, into life, into everywhere that flows from that point in myself. The step by step process is exactly what I learned through the spiritual awakening aspect of my deeper process. It is something that I see now fits into the greater picture of myself understanding how to live. In some ways now I feel like there is nothing to attach too, in this way of being, it comes back to experiencing myself in life aware of the transient nature of each step in my experience, and moving as those steps as my life purpose. Many people talk about wanting to find their life purpose, for me life is the purpose, I am life, each and every step is the purpose of myself understanding myself as life, as the movements, as the aliveness, as this mind body, as this energy, as all things I am alive and aware of in myself connected and living as I choose for myself.





Quote:
As I say I have my distraction, but becoming conscious of it I notice that I am 'behind' it - and this experience has nothing to do with me. I'm actually not touched by it whatsoever, and should it remain or vanish entirely makes no difference. That part is ever peaceful.

Cool bananas.


Quote:
Then I find I'm not affected, but I've gone away. The day I vanished, Gem appeared in my mind like my own ghost, panicking, desperate and angry. I realised I lived my life as this terrified one rather that as the one who now watches undisturbed. I then understood Buddha's 'house builder' (mentioned earlier in the thread). I knew I am not who I am. Gem is in the universe just like planets and stars, and I love the guy not because I chose to, but because the realised truth is, I see all things with utmost purity of love despite all my surface delusions.

That is beautiful. I lived my life as the terrified one, I completely understand. I think when you face your delusionary self at the core and understand terror and fear as your own face, without looking away, facing yourself to that death point, there arises that new found feeling, that I am no longer that person. For me, it was a literal ending of the self caught up and trapped by itself. I died one day and rose again to witness and become the witness of myself. The interesting thing now is that I don't deny myself when I might get caught in a feeling process or contained in my mind. I know myself and the temporary nature of being ok in this process, aware like you in the background. Its all ok even if I know I don't have to be there. I am ok there and I know this too shall pass. I am not tormented now. I once was. Now I am aware its just process. Sometimes I even notice myself so clear deeper in this surface stuff, it feels weird observing myself being there. It becomes almost like I am caught in some surreal world in myself and I am wondering why I am there?


Quote:
These delusions arising from the kamma of past conditioning, the old reaactions to traumatic events etc. and now for me there but to 'let it happen' so that no new potential for misery is generated.

Yes they arise until they arise no more I find. I do find ending points to deeper trauma in myself. It is very possible to do, but it takes a conscious mindful practice to allow and let yourself enter into the process to reach those points of deeper lasting peace. I am undone enough in myself now that there is only process unfolding as it is. I hold no judgment upon myself now which makes everything just be as it needs to be. At the core I am at peace, content and look at life through a more encompassing loving heart space.


Quote:
That is not easy even though it requires no effort to 'let'. Now we speak of morality and all that is 'right', the Buddhist notion of 'right effort' is pertinent to this virtue. For example, when I recently felt that 'reaction' to accusation arising as my need to defend and self-justify, I could tell it was only my self-impression against others' impressions of Gem - IE, it's all imaginary, has no merit, and the belief in its 'reality' is only self-deception. It is that 'ghost' of gem, who as I explained above, isn't me, and in light of that, I see no need to enter the futility of reaction which generates that miserable figure of Gem. Gem the 'house builder', I am aware of you.

Perfectly said.




Quote:
True, that endless outpouring of compassion has it's own pain, and most of us close that off to avoid getting hurt, but as we get stronger we can take more and more, so we open the heart up to all the worldly misery.

Yes I notice that opening to more and more to the worldly misery has been the catalyst to my deeper inner peace and joy of being. Walking through it, was no walk in the park, but I know facing everything bridges not only compassion but peace to be myself more freely as my true nature. Sometimes those more painful connections to parts of the greater suffering arise to challenge me to choose the side in myself now. I know in the past I gave up parts of myself to accommodate the greater suffering as being more worthy than myself. Now as I am entering a new phase of myself, I know I am aware of myself from walking through this. Its a part of me now aware and connected in compassion to all life as life is. For me the stepping stone forward for my own individual life realized, is that I am ready for the greater life. What that is through the greater suffering realized as myself, is again the process and steps from moment to moment I move as.






Quote:
Yes, and we all have the whole contents of our past kamma, we all closed parts down to survive, which we have to open up again when we're stronger. It literally can;t be avoided. It can be put off for a while, even a whole lifetime, but it is already generated and it still need to be lived consciously. I talked with a very talented healer once who explained to me that they have no ego in the healing process. They are the universal consciousness to which you open up, no person there. No judgement arises so the right conditions to be truthful, to show yourself, arises, and you can reveal those closed off parts... as you step out into the light a little. In ourselves it's the same. We are the conscious awareness our dark places open up into... and when we stop holding things down they just bubble up into our conscious space. That's the equanimity, the ceasing to react, as the skilled healer has no reaction at all to the ghastly things that are revealed to them - which is to say, there is no ego involved.

Yes I understand all this and it's an important awareness for any healer/self healing process. The more we access our own self healing ability, the more we can become the healer self open and clear, just listening and allowing what is to move as it needs and will without judgment or attachment. Really being a clear open channel that is present for the other. Many healers can step out from themselves and be that space for others. I know one lady here who does amazing work with others, but she professes she dumps her own issues in the freezer to do the work she is doing. It works, but the work on self moves and catches up to you one way or another. That is probably why they then come to see me.. : I tend to work closely with a lot of healers, but like in your words above, true healing in my view, comes through the space as the space is to itself. What I hold in myself, is what I hold in any space, so the more open and clear I am, the more can be clear and open for the other.


Quote:
I'm not a skilled healer, but I understand the 'annata' of no person and the unaffected way that healer explained.

Yes I imagine you would through the stream of your own awareness and experience.


Quote:
Well I raved a bit to get my spiritual expression out there, so thanks for listening, because you are my greater conscious awareness.

Thankyou for sharing. You didn't rave, it is always interesting to read your own awareness and experiences. Having a reflection of another who understands the process more intricately as you do is always enlightening to my own.
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  #162  
Old 31-05-2018, 12:35 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Its interesting because a lot of people around me, are often curious about the nature of what is and how I approach it. When I say to them, I trust in the process of my life and what is, which means I know the best times for change and movement, taking action and so forth. Even in the most difficult circumstances or the most wonderful ones, for me its not so much about attaching to them as people often do in their actions, but more allow the process of those spaces to emerge more freely without struggle or resistance to the process. I have heard it said to me, "wow" I cant believe you would be able to endure that for so long. (that's just one example). But for me what is, is in everyway of life an opportunity to see myself and find myself in that space more deeply. Choosing change and action is not something that I choose to rush. For me the nature of listening to the movements in myself through peace and clarity, understanding and compassion for all beings, is where I can only move from now. People don't always understand this process, because often people choose and move in ways that often doesn't hold this deeper level of awareness. Not all, but most often many around me do and will. I have a tendency to be content and happy in my core now as I am, everywhere I am. Its like taking home with you everywhere you roam and home never leaves you. For me in this way, life is effortless in my connections and awareness, movements and process. There is much freedom within in this way of being. In some ways life is happening, I am participating and all is well as things are.






I understand, my process has been similar in facing the core of myself in this way of life and death meeting itself. Entering the void taught me how to let go in totality of myself. The process from that point moved into life to experience myself through that stream of deeper letting go. I don't do things in half measures. Someone last night said to me, you turn over every stone through the nature of yourself as deep as you go. He was right. I do. How can you not, if your aware in each moment as you say, each moment of now is a totality of letting go into myself, into life, into everywhere that flows from that point in myself. The step by step process is exactly what I learned through the spiritual awakening aspect of my deeper process. It is something that I see now fits into the greater picture of myself understanding how to live. In some ways now I feel like there is nothing to attach too, in this way of being, it comes back to experiencing myself in life aware of the transient nature of each step in my experience, and moving as those steps as my life purpose. Many people talk about wanting to find their life purpose, for me life is the purpose, I am life, each and every step is the purpose of myself understanding myself as life, as the movements, as the aliveness, as this mind body, as this energy, as all things I am alive and aware of in myself connected and living as I choose for myself.







Cool bananas.




That is beautiful. I lived my life as the terrified one, I completely understand. I think when you face your delusionary self at the core and understand terror and fear as your own face, without looking away, facing yourself to that death point, there arises that new found feeling, that I am no longer that person. For me, it was a literal ending of the self caught up and trapped by itself. I died one day and rose again to witness and become the witness of myself. The interesting thing now is that I don't deny myself when I might get caught in a feeling process or contained in my mind. I know myself and the temporary nature of being ok in this process, aware like you in the background. Its all ok even if I know I don't have to be there. I am ok there and I know this too shall pass. I am not tormented now. I once was. Now I am aware its just process. Sometimes I even notice myself so clear deeper in this surface stuff, it feels weird observing myself being there. It becomes almost like I am caught in some surreal world in myself and I am wondering why I am there?


The sense I got, or the impression I was under, when I came back to life, was there is a healing process which is incomplete and needs conscious attention to be fully resolved. I have no particular reason for believing that, but I had the impression that there is much to resolve. When I undertook meditation seriously on retreat, my teacher told me about how the kamma of the past created 'sankaras', which are potentials for manifestations which haven't yet arisen in conscious experience, and these 'stored potentials' have to rise in consciousness so that they can pass. That way of explaining started to make a lot of sense as the process of my practice saw so many things rise out me and dissolve away. I'm here to let them all come up in their own way, willingly. That's why avoiding the adverse and clinging to the wonderful, the general practice of hatred and greed, and all these 'willful' endeavours is generating more sankara which have to arise later on and pass away. Better to already let arisings and passings happen, so the old sankara are emptying out, and stop creating more sankara and adding them to the heap.


In the meditation I saw it fer realz and understood what my teacher was talking about, and that Buddhist explanation kinda matched the original impression I was under, like I first said.



Now you are saying something similar - "they arise until they arise no more", and ending points, and the conscious mindful practice and so on - and these ring true for me, but I have no reason for it to be true, you know, like "I know its true" - it's just something I can talk about which does not resolve as an answer or as anything I'm certain of... and explaining that would be ironic, right? Teehee.



Quote:
Yes they arise until they arise no more I find. I do find ending points to deeper trauma in myself. It is very possible to do, but it takes a conscious mindful practice to allow and let yourself enter into the process to reach those points of deeper lasting peace. I am undone enough in myself now that there is only process unfolding as it is. I hold no judgment upon myself now which makes everything just be as it needs to be. At the core I am at peace, content and look at life through a more encompassing loving heart space.





Perfectly said.






Yes I notice that opening to more and more to the worldly misery has been the catalyst to my deeper inner peace and joy of being. Walking through it, was no walk in the park, but I know facing everything bridges not only compassion but peace to be myself more freely as my true nature. Sometimes those more painful connections to parts of the greater suffering arise to challenge me to choose the side in myself now. I know in the past I gave up parts of myself to accommodate the greater suffering as being more worthy than myself. Now as I am entering a new phase of myself, I know I am aware of myself from walking through this. Its a part of me now aware and connected in compassion to all life as life is. For me the stepping stone forward for my own individual life realized, is that I am ready for the greater life. What that is through the greater suffering realized as myself, is again the process and steps from moment to moment I move as.








Yes I understand all this and it's an important awareness for any healer/self healing process. The more we access our own self healing ability, the more we can become the healer self open and clear, just listening and allowing what is to move as it needs and will without judgment or attachment. Really being a clear open channel that is present for the other. Many healers can step out from themselves and be that space for others. I know one lady here who does amazing work with others, but she professes she dumps her own issues in the freezer to do the work she is doing. It works, but the work on self moves and catches up to you one way or another. That is probably why they then come to see me.. : I tend to work closely with a lot of healers, but like in your words above, true healing in my view, comes through the space as the space is to itself. What I hold in myself, is what I hold in any space, so the more open and clear I am, the more can be clear and open for the other.




Yes I imagine you would through the stream of your own awareness and experience.




Thankyou for sharing. You didn't rave, it is always interesting to read your own awareness and experiences. Having a reflection of another who understands the process more intricately as you do is always enlightening to my own.
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  #163  
Old 31-05-2018, 08:53 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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I believe the best understanding leads one to live now with the attention off of thought. If somebody asks about "me" and my attention goes to my thoughts and memory to answer, the answer is not really about me. I am not this body, or this bodies experiences, or this bodies thoughts. I am like a person sitting in a movie theater watching a movie. The movie is not me even though I experience it.

Looking to memory we say I am this or I am that, this is truth, but the truth there is based on a consciousness identifying with their human brain and mind. Luckily we are not this "person" as this person has a beginning and an end. The real self does not die with the body. The consciousness. The "me," which descends for the time span of one human life, into the delusion of human experience and thought as the self.
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  #164  
Old 01-06-2018, 02:52 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Initially I wasn't going to talk about existential things such as am I or am I not? Or if I am, then what? (That rhymes!).


I was just starting with refuge because that's the first step in a formal meditation retreat, and I moved on to sila because that's also an initial vow, and hoped to follow a progression of topics which match the progression of the meditation practice.


Hence I want to bring it back to the subject of morality (sila) and discuss how that enhances the meditation, as well as how morality pertains to more inherent notions of virtue.



I have taken the sila vows formally many times and these are important in establishing a code of conduct in the cultural context of an ashram, but outside of that environment most of it isn't relevant. Such vows as what kind of bed I sleep in and when I take meals aren't relevant to 'virtue' in any universal sense. On the other hand, not harming living things is arising from a universal aspect of compassion, and is thus 'virtuous'.


Just as refuge is important to undertake in the context of meditation, sila is also foundational. For example the desire to harm things arises from deep disturbances of anger, jealousy, spite, hatred and so forth, so it's not so much the hurting of things in itself that is immoral, but it's immoral because the intent behind it generates suffering. The one doing harm is generating their own suffering and spreading it around to make others suffer. That's basically what 'immoral' implies.


Of course a mind agitated by ill intent isn't able to meditate, a because meditation is awareness with stillness, and agitation is the disturbance of that still poise. In this way, 'good intent', like refuge, is primal to mindful practice.


This has very deep implications because our ill-willed intentions just come up and we might recognise it as 'that's not nice' but be unable to 'not feel that way'. Bearing a grudge, for example, doesn't stop because you want it to. You can't help feeling that spite over some terrible injustice even though you know that burning wish to see them suffer is making you suffer as well. You can't stop it on the surface because the cause is deeper. Attacking the surface feeling is like chopping off weeds above the ground. They remain unseen for a while, but they return with renewed vigour. The meditation is going to the unseen roots, and enables you to take the thing out whole, and that is a different intent entirely.
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  #165  
Old 01-06-2018, 03:36 AM
Eelco
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Training in Sila or Morality is known as the first training.
In my understanding only because It is a training which we have to deal with every day from birth to death. Training in Sila pertains our everyday lives and the choices we make/the actions we take.

The so called second training is the one known as concentration. It pertains formal samadhi practice. I.E concentration on a single point. breath(body parts), elements, kasina(colored disk) etc.

And the third training would be wisdom.
These days we substitute Wisdom with insight training or Vipassana, but there are subtle differences.

Any way. One isn't more important or comes first in terms of importance on the path. All three the trainings influence each other. And one can take any of the three to start with.

One finds that training in the one strengthens the other.

There's a wonderful story by Joseph Goldstein Where he is asked to contemplate his Sila by his meditation master. Joseph immediately (like most westerners would) Start pondering what they did wrong.
After a while he realized the contemplation was suggested to him as an exercise to help him relax in thinking about his blessings..


Anyway my 2 cnts.

With emptiness,
Eelco
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  #166  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:41 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
Training in Sila or Morality is known as the first training.
In my understanding only because It is a training which we have to deal with every day from birth to death. Training in Sila pertains our everyday lives and the choices we make/the actions we take.


I just put it in this order because the refuge and sila vows are the first thing that happens in retreat and they are considered to be the foundation for the forthcoming meditation practice.


Quote:
The so called second training is the one known as concentration. It pertains formal samadhi practice. I.E concentration on a single point. breath(body parts), elements, kasina(colored disk) etc.


That commences immediately after taking the vows.


Quote:
And the third training would be wisdom.
These days we substitute Wisdom with insight training or Vipassana, but there are subtle differences.


The wisdom is basically the summation of insight. Insight means you see for yourself the way that it is. Vipassana means to see it as it is.


Quote:
Any way. One isn't more important or comes first in terms of importance on the path. All three the trainings influence each other. And one can take any of the three to start with.


They start with refuge and sila saying these are the foundation of meditation.


Quote:
One finds that training in the one strengthens the other.


Tru dat


Quote:
There's a wonderful story by Joseph Goldstein Where he is asked to contemplate his Sila by his meditation master. Joseph immediately (like most westerners would) Start pondering what they did wrong.
After a while he realized the contemplation was suggested to him as an exercise to help him relax in thinking about his blessings..


Anyway my 2 cnts.

With emptiness,
Eelco
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  #167  
Old 14-06-2018, 08:58 AM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
The wisdom is basically the summation of insight. Insight means you see for yourself the way that it is. Vipassana means to see it as it is.

insights are cool things

Definition of insight
1 : the power or act of seeing into a situation : penetration
2 : the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively
3 :an instance of apprehending the true nature of a thing, especially through intuitive understanding:

I don't like those googled definitions so much...

Insight into self.... those are life changing and profound.... discovering something new about the self... seeing something new, understanding something new, having a new experience....a new perspective

Insights are underrated lol

I've had some amazing insight experiences and they totally changed my view of myself and the world. One dealt with the nature of thought, one with the source or the "divine" well heck that one also illuminated a certain path as it exists....then one blew my mind as it showed me ...trying to remember this one as it was subtle....so easily forgotten and put away... ah yea....hmmmm this one can't put into words easily....it showed me the power of thought to produce delusional experience and again, the profound nature of enlightenment.... and yea question the truth of a thought.... its amazing what is going on there all the time

insights for me are many times a glimpse into higher states of being which i have not actualized or live yet... so I get a brief insight into the realities that await us all if we are steadfast and determined to do what is necessary to move along the path
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  #168  
Old 14-06-2018, 09:13 AM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
insights are cool things

Definition of insight
1 : the power or act of seeing into a situation : penetration
2 : the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively
3 :an instance of apprehending the true nature of a thing, especially through intuitive understanding:

I don't like those googled definitions so much...

Insight into self.... those are life changing and profound.... discovering something new about the self... seeing something new, understanding something new, having a new experience....a new perspective

Insights are underrated lol

I've had some amazing insight experiences and they totally changed my view of myself and the world. One dealt with the nature of thought, one with the source or the "divine" well heck that one also illuminated a certain path as it exists....then one blew my mind as it showed me ...trying to remember this one as it was subtle....so easily forgotten and put away... ah yea....hmmmm this one can't put into words easily....it showed me the power of thought to produce delusional experience and again, the profound nature of enlightenment.... and yea question the truth of a thought.... its amazing what is going on there all the time

insights for me are many times a glimpse into higher states of being which i have not actualized or live yet... so I get a brief insight into the realities that await us all if we are steadfast and determined to do what is necessary to move along the path




Insight into self showed me that there is not self....
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  #169  
Old 14-06-2018, 01:08 PM
Eelco
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
insights are cool things.


insights for me are many times a glimpse into higher states of being which i have not actualized or live yet... so I get a brief insight into the realities that await us all if we are steadfast and determined to do what is necessary to move along the path




Yes they are way cool and with some knowledge of the stages of insight one comes to know that the Theravada's at least have a pretty clear overview of what they mean, how they affect ones life and map a progression through them..


I believe the Mahayana have something similar.


Just saying that wisdom stems from insight and that is vipassana is a crude way of looking at it.
It's neither a simple nor a useful statement without knowing what is meant by vipassana, and the stages one encounters when practicing a certain way
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  #170  
Old 14-06-2018, 03:40 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
insights are cool things

Definition of insight
1 : the power or act of seeing into a situation : penetration
2 : the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively
3 :an instance of apprehending the true nature of a thing, especially through intuitive understanding:

I don't like those googled definitions so much...


Oh I think they are fair definitions.


Quote:
Insight into self.... those are life changing and profound.... discovering something new about the self... seeing something new, understanding something new, having a new experience....a new perspective

Insights are underrated lol


I think insight is the name of the game.


Quote:
I've had some amazing insight experiences and they totally changed my view of myself and the world. One dealt with the nature of thought, one with the source or the "divine" well heck that one also illuminated a certain path as it exists....then one blew my mind as it showed me ...trying to remember this one as it was subtle....so easily forgotten and put away... ah yea....hmmmm this one can't put into words easily....it showed me the power of thought to produce delusional experience and again, the profound nature of enlightenment.... and yea question the truth of a thought.... its amazing what is going on there all the time

insights for me are many times a glimpse into higher states of being which i have not actualized or live yet... so I get a brief insight into the realities that await us all if we are steadfast and determined to do what is necessary to move along the path




Very good points...
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