Interesting ... "Vegan man ridiculed online after publicly shaming woman for ..."

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Blue Tiger

Ice cream may not be to Altair's liking, but that is entirely Altair's choice. One person's choice does not make that choice right for everyone else.
I'd much rather give a child the message that there are kind people in the world, rather than that some people think ice cream is somehow evil.

It's not about ice cream being evil or not. This is about our consumption patterns and how we treat other living beings that have the same senses as us.. Lets put this into perspective. On the one hand we have a kid who eats an ice cream, and at the other hand we have a system that treats billions of animals as camp inmates..

Vegans are right to criticize.. we need to figure out how we can change the system..
It however does take the right setting to do it.. maybe the vegan here was not doing that.
But it's no excuse for parents to willingly teach children to be ignorant about how animals are systematically treated.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Altair

Actually, a vegan would point out that there is harm involved, because of the dairy industry..

You see only ''kindness'' because you won't look past your initial observation. It's easy to shut our eyes, in fact many meat eaters do the same.. they prefer to stay in ignorance during a Christmas meal or while enjoying any meal with meat. It is good that there are people out there pointing out the issues with animal agriculture..

We need to put our own ego's aside, and often we are not willing to do that because we are reminded that we all partake in cruelty at some level, just to different degrees..
I am no vegan myself but I don't mind if they argue with me over dairy, eggs, or honey. In some ways I agree with them, in other ways not..

No doubt ''Fox News'' and most of their readers and watchers will blame the vegan, start co-producing more myths, and are all willingly ignorant about the actual issue.
Some people are just too scared to deal with the issue itself, no doubt in the US this reflects the majority..

Aren't you a little too judgemental and prejudiced? You assume too much, and draw demeaning conclusions based on prejudice. That isn't neither nice, nor can be right. :)

[Altair]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Aren't you a little too judgemental and prejudiced? You assume too much, and draw demeaning conclusions based on prejudice. That isn't neither nice, nor can be right. :)

Sure, there is always a level of assumption made in any comment, but if you feel not okay with that then by all means be specific, point it out. I make these comments based on my observations, here (based on posts' content) and elsewhere. It is my observation that most people do not want to be confronted with the suffering they are causing. This requires slashing pieces of our own ego.. not an easy thing to do.. for me, you, and most everyone else..

Yes there is judgement, as there always is with any moral issue. I know much of modern 'New Age' spirituality is about moral relativism but I do not subscribe to that.. It makes zero sense and is an excuse, a shield to hide behind in order to not take responsibility for our actions.

[LillyBelle]

Originally Posted by Altair

You say you ''care about people'' based on this ice cream story..?
Our ''care'' should also not be limited to one species. To the kid, this is about an ice cream, not exactly a mind shattering topic concerning human ''kindness'' or ''care'' - just a trivial issue. To the animals however, it is a different matter. And the way we consume is surrounded by death, often unnecessary death.. so the comparison shows that the vegan may have a point, although it perhaps may not be the right setting to point it out..

First of all let's just get one thing out of the way, this was an ice-cream truck. The ice-cream was already bought from the farm. They weren't going to make a cent from this purchase. The only person that was going to make money from this purchase was the ice-cream man. If she really wanted to make a difference, the person who she should have talked to wasn't the child, in the first place. It was the ice-cream man. She could have gone up to him and talked to him after the children got their ice-cream and were happily playing elsewhere.

Okay, now that we cleared that up, let's go back to the point at hand, you don't force your beliefs on a child. If you think the ice-cream wasn't a big deal to the child, you don't understand children. The things you think they wouldn't remember, are the things they often do. I would bet that this child will remember this act of kindness. It taught her that, there are kind people in this world. Children should be taught that because as we get older, we start to lose our faith in humanity because we are bombarded by negative media. I can't imagine that any loving person would have ignored a child crying in their driveway. Especially not over concerns about a dairy farm over twenty miles away.

Seriously, you need to be kind if you want to get people on your side. If you really have concerns then, your best approach is through education. Tell people what you are concerned about. Call the dairy farm, ask them what their procedures are and then, tell them your concerns. Write your Government officials, tell them you want change. If you think boycotting your local ice-cream truck driver is going to make a difference, I can assure you, it won't.

[Altair]

Governments are in the pockets of businesses, in particular agriculture and fossil fuels. People around the world continue to protest, object, and call out their governments, often they are met with ridicule or violence. Name a continent, and I can name you a number of countries and examples. It is no wonder prominent US politicians are directly sponsored by fossil fuel companies, then go on denying climate change. Animal agriculture is no different. You should look at how big businesses influence and determine policies. This is why changes happen with each and every one of us changing our lifestyles. Every person making a change, no matter how small you think it is, does matter because the issues get exposure.

I can only assume you have no interest in these issues, hence for not a single time here you focussed on the actual issue at hand, and why this vegan raised it. I can understand it may not have been the right context, instead I rather stick to the message. This is a spiritual forum. We can talk about kindness and love ad infinitum here and elsewhere, but if this is only limited to one species it is empty..

[Gem]

To look at it another way, what would motivate the poster? Perhaps she posted it so everyone could see how kind she was, or perhaps because it's controversial, or maybe she just posts everything on social media. It could even be orchestrated, like, "Giving this child money would make a good tweet'. We don't know the motivation, so we can't know if it was kind or not.

Secondly, is it acceptable to give someone else's child money for ice-cream without first asking their parents if its OK? I don't think it is, and I think the parents would be alarmed.

Then it becomes the vegan issue. A highly moralised issue. I think the vegan ethical stance is unquestionable, less animal cruelty, ecologically 'cleaner' and better sustainability. So ethics, based in reason, are sound. The moral factor is more interesting, because although something like animal suffering is bad, how bad is it? One with really strong vegan values would say 'totally evil' and a meat eater would be prepared to eat animals even though they know it involves animal suffering.

In short, the ethics are inarguable - it's cruel to inflict suffering on living things - but the morals are a kind of measure of how must importance and value different individuals place on the ethical principle itself.

A radical screaming vegan extremist would say gifting them ice cream is totally evil, even a vegetarian would have no problem with it, and I'm sure would be far more shocked that she gave money to someone else's child!

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Gem

A radical screaming vegan extremist would say gifting them ice cream is totally evil, even a vegetarian would have no problem with it, and I'm sure would be far more shocked that she gave money to someone else's child!

It depends on the vegetarian.. and how the animals that produce milk, eggs, and honey are treated. Some vegetarians might be oblivious to it.. maybe no good income to buy ecologically sustainable alternatives, or maybe they don't want to think about it. It's also a matter of whether we think it is okay using animals for our gains.. whether it's for milk, eggs... or sled dogs, police dogs, horse racing, animal zoos etc.

These are all topics that are good to think about..

I am glad vegans raise all these issues.. they help raise awareness of many issues. They keep us sharp..

[LillyBelle]

Originally Posted by Altair

Governments are in the pockets of businesses, in particular agriculture and fossil fuels. People around the world continue to protest, object, and call out their governments, often they are met with ridicule or violence. Name a continent, and I can name you a number of countries and examples. It is no wonder prominent US politicians are directly sponsored by fossil fuel companies, then go on denying climate change. Animal agriculture is no different. You should look at how big businesses influence and determine policies. This is why changes happen with each and every one of us changing our lifestyles. Every person making a change, no matter how small you think it is, does matter because the issues get exposure.

I can only assume you have no interest in these issues, hence for not a single time here you focussed on the actual issue at hand, and why this vegan raised it. I can understand it may not have been the right context, instead I rather stick to the message. This is a spiritual forum. We can talk about kindness and love ad infinitum here and elsewhere, but if this is only limited to one species it is empty..

I have no idea what is going on in other countries. I can only tell you what is going on here and even then, it would be a stretch. However, what I do know is that if you really want change, you have to go through the right channels. The right channel in this case, is not forcing your beliefs on a child by denying them an ice cream.

No, the issue will not get exposure by just ignoring a child crying in your driveway. Actually, in this case, the exact opposite happened. Though, he probably alienated tons of people from the cause by acting like a jerk to a woman who did a kind deed. Which, goes back to my point, that if you want someone to be on your side, you have to be nice. Present educated points of view supported by facts. However, don't ridicule and shame people for not believing what you do, in an attempt to manipulate them into conforming to your belief system.

As for do I care about the issues, well I simply don't know what all the fuss is about. I'm not really fully aware of the whole vegan hype. So, I can't comment there. Are there some problems with the farming industry, maybe. I've never personally been to a farm to know. I do know the approach isn't working very well because veganism has been going on for decades. I would suggest a different approach.

You want a spiritual view point? Okay. All animals eat each other. It's the circle of life. The only reason we're different is because we're the only ones feeling bad about it. Yet, ironically ask almost anyone and they'll think their cat or dog is more spiritually aware then them. The same cat who just killed a bird outside in their front yard.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by LillyBelle

I'm not really fully aware of the whole vegan hype. So, I can't comment there.

Then why comment...?
You like to talk about kids and ice creams and forget the context in which this is posted.

Originally Posted by LillyBelle

Are there some problems with the farming industry, maybe. I've never personally been to a farm to know. I do know the approach isn't working very well because veganism has been going on for decades. I would suggest a different approach.

You suggest a different approach yet you have no knowledge about the actual issue. Educate yourself first, then we'll talk about approaches. If you value ''education'' and ''rationality'' then lead by example. I have been to many farms, talked to many farmers (organic and conventional), and looked at their impacts on the environment and how animals are used. I recommend reading scientific articles about it, watching documentaries, and visiting farms and slaughterhouses.

Originally Posted by LillyBelle

You want a spiritual view point? Okay. All animals eat each other. It's the circle of life. The only reason we're different is because we're the only ones feeling bad about it.

That's not a spiritual point of view, it's an observation through the physical senses. If you reduce the issue to ''we're only feeling bad about it'' then the same can be said about any moral issue, be it murder, rape, torture, etc. This is moral nihilism.. It's okay to rape and torture.. you're just feeling bad about it.. Change the feel and it's okay!
You are also making a naturalistic fallacy. What animals and nature do is not a guideline as to how humans can or should behave.

Originally Posted by LillyBelle

Yet, ironically ask almost anyone and they'll think their cat or dog is more spiritually aware then them.

Because they hear the wind blowing and you think they see ghosts?
Many animal species have amazingly powerful senses compared to us. I'd be cautious to subscribe spiritual awareness to them.

Originally Posted by LillyBelle

The same cat who just killed a bird outside in their front yard.

Good of you to raise the point. Many bird species are in decline because of cat owners giving their cats freedom, which leads to empty gardens and diminished ecological quality. Were this 2000 years ago it wouldn't have much of an impact, however due to intensive agriculture many bird species are now dependent upon the gardens people have created, as much of the countryside in developed countries have become ecological deserts due to pesticides, herbicides and deforestation (much of that thanks to the meat industry). Putting more strain on these birds by letting domestic cats roam outside does a disservice to ecological quality and leads to species' extinction.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...irds-each-year
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...ay-study-shows
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ats-180960505/

[LillyBelle]

Originally Posted by Altair

Then why comment...?
You like to talk about kids and ice creams and forget the context in which this is posted.

You suggest a different approach yet you have no knowledge about the actual issue. Educate yourself first, then we'll talk about approaches. If you value ''education'' and ''rationality'' then lead by example. I have been to many farms, talked to many farmers (organic and conventional), and looked at their impacts on the environment and how animals are used. I recommend reading scientific articles about it, watching documentaries, and visiting farms and slaughterhouses.


That's not a spiritual point of view, it's an observation through the physical senses. If you reduce the issue to ''we're only feeling bad about it'' then the same can be said about any moral issue, be it murder, rape, torture, etc. This is moral nihilism.. It's okay to rape and torture.. you're just feeling bad about it.. Change the feel and it's okay!
You are also making a naturalistic fallacy. What animals and nature do is not a guideline as to how humans can or should behave.

Because they hear the wind blowing and you think they see ghosts?

Good of you to raise the point. Many bird species are in decline because of cat owners giving their cats freedom, which leads to empty gardens and diminished ecological quality. Were this 2000 years ago it wouldn't have much of an impact, however due to intensive agriculture many bird species are now dependent upon the gardens people have created, as much of the countryside in developed countries have become ecological deserts due to pesticides, herbicides and deforestation (much of that thanks to the meat industry). Putting more strain on these birds by letting domestic cats roam outside does a disservice to ecological quality and leads to species' extinction.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...irds-each-year
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...ay-study-shows
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ats-180960505/

I'm aloud to comment on a news article. There's no problem with that. I do know a general bit about the issues they concern themselves with. They're concerned about the cruelty to the animals on the farm and the issues with widespread antibiotic use.

I'm sure you have read plenty on these issues as it is your area of interest. However, the approach being taken here is not helpful. I think it's safe to point that out. I gave out a different way because in general, that is the best way to go about these things. I'm not here to solve the problem within the farming community. That's not my job. That's for the farmers and Veterinary community.

Why the heck would I ever want to subject myself to that? I'm not watching pro-vegan documentaries. No way. I learned that lesson after watching an over-dramatized PETA video. That would be a waste of time considering their bias. That would be like me watching a documentary on Global Warming or something from the Flat Earth society. It's not worth pulling my hair out of my head. If anything I may be inclined to read up on a study done, but I doubt any reputable Scientist would be spending their time in that area. Maybe if they were raising the concern about antibiotic use.

As for visiting, um no. I'm not a nature girl. I'm much happier at home, but thank you. Closest I got was in North Carolina across from a pig slaughterhouse. You could smell it for miles. That was enough for me. It's you guys who took up this cause, not me. Therefore, it's you who can do the visiting and research. My area is Medical Science. That's the area I chose to spend my time researching.

Now you're just stretching things. The point was made because we're all animals. Or, do you not believe we're animals and we're actually above them? In other words, every animal has to eat and every animal does so.

I know about the issue with cats and the birds. Again though, that's nature. Cats are being cats, that's what they do. It's natural.