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  #1  
Old 25-07-2019, 05:50 PM
MattMVS7 MattMVS7 is offline
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If love is the most important thing, then why...

I realize that people, who have near death experiences, and go on heavenly trips where they meet god, report that the most important life lesson they learn is love. So, god, and these heavenly beings, want us to love one another here on Earth. Now, in order to love someone, you must have a loving thought. But, the loving thought, by itself, does not allow you to love, since it doesn't give you the experience of love. It's only once that thought makes you feel love (an emotion) that you're able to love someone.

Feelings are how we experience things, whether it be love, hunger, thirst, pain, pleasure, etc. We need to feel pain to experience pain, we need to feel hungry and thirsty to experience hunger and thirst, etc. The same idea applies to love. Love is a feeling (a positive emotion), and positive emotions would be feelings of joy, beauty, excitement, sexual arousal, etc. But, the thing is, positive emotions are very fleeting in this Earthly existence. There are many things that can take them away from us, such as brain damage, mental illnesses, etc.

There are people who struggle with ongoing, clinical depression, which renders them without the ability to love, and these people must live their lives like this. Some depressed people are resistant to treatment. I realize that depressed people do feel positive emotions, including love, on certain occasions. But, it's not much. If the most important thing here on Earth is to love one another, then why is god allowing people to struggle with mental illnesses that take away their ability to love?

Why isn't he using his divine healing powers to make sure that feelings of love remain intact, and can never be taken away? If love is so important to him, then it makes no sense why he isn't doing this. Perhaps god is a liar, and he really doesn't care about love, or all the suffering humanity goes through. Or, maybe, god doesn't exist, and these heavenly trips people go on are nothing more than hallucinations. This would mean these people aren't learning any life lessons from a real god, or real heavenly beings.
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  #2  
Old 25-07-2019, 07:50 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Love...pure, unconditional love, is the only thing which is not fleeting or transitory and survives after bodily death.

Yes, it may be very difficult for a depressed person to feel it... experience it; when all that person requires is another to express it towards them.. without any expectation or critical judgment, which is often a huge ask...so they need to find it within themselves, which also isn't easy.

Depressed individuals face many challenges in this regard, but there is a way out of depression, usually when such a person reaches rock bottom and has no where left to go and so the only thing they can do is just surrender to whatever it is they may be feeling, without personal guilt or recrimination..losing the whole " victim mentality" by (ob)serving others and they will see that many others are in a worse position than themselves and then foster empathy because they, themselves have been through it and felt it....but maybe not to the same extent.

I have clinical depression...I also love God. I haven't quite managed to love everyone else yet..but I don't hate them either...in fact, for me, that separation between "self" and "other" still exists as I have not succeeded in fully dropping my ego, but in a way, that is also a good thing, because it teaches me that everyone perceives things differently and although "loving others" may be a bit of a stretch, being tolerant and understanding of all the differences is not... so I can personally be cool with it...realizing that it is only "Spiritual society" which deems that I should love others, when I am my own person anyway and what others think or feel about my own practices should not matter to me.

God is the only one who will love you for who you truly are...warts and all, because only God knows your innermost secrets...your feelings...why you act or behave like you do, but He will never give up on you or turn you away, even though most depressed people feel forsaken by God...but it is they who feel like God has forsaken them, when God has never...and will never do that.

It is a long road, but the depressed person just needs to be "taken out of themselves" for long enough to realise there is another reality.... another way of being, if they are only able to let go...to trust in a power greater than their depressed selves. It is really up to the individual to pull themselves out of their depressed rut...but this often takes time, patience and understanding.

This is why love is the most important thing...because it heals the wounded soul if one is receptive to it..and although a depressed person does not have much in the way of receptivity, one can also say that it is more an outcome of karma, than a sadistic God wishing to inflict suffering on mankind.

When a depressed person gets to the end of their tether, they realise they just don't want to be depressed anymore...and there are two ways out...to either off themselves, or to lose themselves in a bottle, which is only a short term solution because they are only delaying the inevitable when it comes to future incarnations, or they seem to find other ways to drag themselves out...faking it until they make it, if their ego allows them to get over the whole hypocrisy of this...however, there is one consolidation...the subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is delusion...and it is the subconscious mind which requires the modification in this regard.
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  #3  
Old 25-07-2019, 08:09 PM
MattMVS7 MattMVS7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Love...pure, unconditional love, is the only thing which is not fleeting or transitory and survives after bodily death.

Yes, it may be very difficult for a depressed person to feel it... experience it; when all that person requires is another to express it towards them.. without any expectation or critical judgment, which is often a huge ask...so they need to find it within themselves, which also isn't easy.

Depressed individuals face many challenges in this regard, but there is a way out of depression, usually when such a person reaches rock bottom and has no where left to go and so the only thing they can do is just surrender to whatever it is they may be feeling, without personal guilt or recrimination..losing the whole " victim mentality" by (ob)serving others and they will see that many others are in a worse position than themselves and then foster empathy because they, themselves have been through it and felt it....but maybe not to the same extent.

I have clinical depression...I also love God. I haven't quite managed to love everyone else yet..but I don't hate them either...in fact, for me, that separation between "self" and "other" still exists as I have not succeeded in fully dropping my ego, but in a way, that is also a good thing, because it teaches me that everyone perceives things differently and although "loving others" may be a bit of a stretch, being tolerant and understanding of all the differences is not... so I can personally be cool with it...realizing that it is only "Spiritual society" which deems that I should love others, when I am my own person anyway and what others think or feel about my own practices should not matter to me.

God is the only one who will love you for who you truly are...warts and all, because only God knows your innermost secrets...your feelings...why you act or behave like you do, but He will never give up on you or turn you away, even though most depressed people feel forsaken by God...but it is they who feel like God has forsaken them, when God has never...and will never do that.

It is a long road, but the depressed person just needs to be "taken out of themselves" for long enough to realise there is another reality.... another way of being, if they are only able to let go...to trust in a power greater than their depressed selves. It will s really up to the individual to pull themselves out of their depressed rut...but this often takes time, patience and understanding.

This is why love is the most important thing...because it heals the soul if one is receptive to it..and although a depressed person does not have much in the way of receptivity, one can also say that it is more an outcome of karma, than a sadistic God wishing to inflict suffering on mankind.

When a depressed person gets to the end of their tether, they realise they just don't want to be depressed anymore...and there are two ways out...to either off themselves, or to lose themselves in a bottle, which is only a short term solution because they are only delaying the inevitable when it comes to future incarnations, or they seem to find other ways to drag themselves out...faking it until they make it, if their ego allows them to get over the whole hypocrisy of it....however, there is one consolidation...the subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is delusion...and it is the subconscious mind which requires the modification in that regard.

Are you sure this form of love you speak of exists? Personally, I think love can only be a fleeting emotion, and people deny this, since they don't want it to be true. They wish to believe in some greater, everlasting love, which doesn't exist.
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  #4  
Old 25-07-2019, 08:23 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMVS7
Are you sure this form of love you speak of exists? Personally, I think love can only be a fleeting emotion, and people deny this, since they don't want it to be true. They wish to believe in some greater, everlasting love, which doesn't exist.
Personally, I have felt it, so I know that it exists. It is only fleeting or impermanent to those who deny the everlasting nature of it ..which is also like a catch 22.

To be honest, it is only my depression which stops me from experiencing it more than just a fleeting sensation...if my depression wasn't getting in the way, I would be blissed out 24/7 on this love.

The ego will create anything to preserve the individual identity for its own survival and depression is usually caused by feelings of not being loved, appreciated, heard, acknowledged, or losing that which was once loved in a physical way.

There are many expressions of love...Eros, Filial, Agape..

The only love that lasts forever is Agape..Divine Love. All other forms of love come with conditioned attachment and you are correct...once the attachment goes, so does the love and the forms of love we are both talking about are two different varieties...I have felt God's love...my rejection of it is causing my depression because my ego wants to stay in control...so, I really bring all of my suffering on myself, as harsh as that may sound.
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  #5  
Old 25-07-2019, 08:36 PM
MattMVS7 MattMVS7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Personally, I have felt it, so I know that it exists. It is only fleeting or impermanent to those who deny the everlasting existence of it ..which is like a catch 22.

To be honest, it is only my depression which stops me from experiencing it more than just a fleeting sensation...if my depression wasn't getting in the way, I would be blissed out 24/7 on this love.

The ego will create anything to preserve the individual identity for its own survival and depression is usually caused through feelings of not being loved, appreciated, heard, acknowledged, or losing that which we once loved in a physical way...

There are many expression of love...Eros, filial, agape..

The only love that lasts forever is agape..Divine Love. All other forms of love come with attachment and you are correct...once the attachment goes, so does the love and the forms of love we are both talking about are two different varieties...I have felt God's love...my rejection of it is causing my depression because my ego wants to stay in control...so, I really bring all of my suffering on myself, as harsh as that may sound.

Now, I've been known to enjoy my life and hobbies all throughout the day each day. That was before I had devastating moments in my life, which caused me to be miserable. But, the very fact I was able to continually enjoy my life and hobbies doesn't mean my enjoyment wasn't an emotion. It was still an emotion, which means something else could've taken it away from me, such as brain damage. So, when you say you'd able to experience this greater, everlasting, unconditional love if it weren't for your depression, that love would still be an emotion you're feeling. If you had brain damage, or developed some sort of mental illness that's known to take away positive emotions, then you wouldn't be able to love. So, love is still an emotion, which means there's no such thing as a form of love that still stands, even in the face of brain damage, mental illness, etc.
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  #6  
Old 25-07-2019, 08:46 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Hi MattMVS7

You continue to ask the same question in different forms. You are really asking why God does not wave a magic wand and solve all the problems of humanity so we can all live in an Earthly paradise. And you deduce that because Earth is not such a paradise then perhaps there is no God, because a loving God would not allow humans to hate and suffer. Somehow you need to broaden your spiritual philosophy so it can encompass the paradox of a loving Divine presence in a world of human suffering.

I consider humanity as a work in progress. At the moment, humanity is a long way from expressing the Divine ideal but it is moving in the right direction. Eventually there may be a paradise on Earth, and humans will be loving and wise. And this wisdom and this capacity to love will have been learned through all the suffering humanity has undergone.

So I suggest that you try to see the bigger picture, the long-term plan, rather than focusing on all the present problems.

Peace.
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Old 25-07-2019, 08:50 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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In my experience there is a big difference between the love of the Divine and the emotional love felt by humans. A difference which is much more than just conditional love and unconditional love.

The love of human beings often begins with infatuation, and infatuation has often been discribed as a state of insanity. The love of God, or the Divine, transforms your entire being; it is not merely emotional. You merge with it and it absorbs you. The love of God is very intoxicating and overwhelming to the point that you lose yourself in it.

There are no individuals in God's love there is just God's love; that is the only thing that exists. When you feel it you instantly know that this is the source of all joy, all love. God's love makes the word "love" seem puny. People have to transform themselves to experience the fine-ness of that unconditional love.

But we do not have to transform ourselves to experience human emotional love. Most of the time what we call human love is but lust. And in my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. But human emotional love comes and goes while the love of God is permanent and steadfast. This is my experience.
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Old 25-07-2019, 08:53 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMVS7
Now, I've been known to enjoy my life and hobbies all throughout the day each day. That was before I had devastating moments in my life, which caused me to be miserable. But, the very fact I was able to continually enjoy my life and hobbies doesn't mean my enjoyment wasn't an emotion. It was still an emotion, which means something else could've taken it away from me, such as brain damage. So, when you say you'd able to experience this greater, everlasting, unconditional love if it weren't for your depression, that love would still be an emotion you're feeling. If you had brain damage, or developed some sort of mental illness that's known to take away positive emotions, then you wouldn't be able to love. So, love is still an emotion, which means there's no such thing as a form of love that still stands, even in the face of brain damage, mental illness, etc.
All I can say, is that if you don't believe such love exists, then you are correct...for YOU, it doesn't. This does not mean that it doesn't exist at all..just that it does not for YOU...but at any moment that can change. All that is necessary is for you to drop all notions of who you think you are...who you perceive yourself to be and exist in the moment...in the NOW.

I may have more to say on this at a later time, but for now, I just woke up..it is 7am over here in Sydney Australia and I need to have a shower, have my breakfast and start my day.

No doubt others will have thoughts about this and I shall leave it up to them. Hopefully, Miss Hepburn may reply to this, as she has had a lot more experience than yours truly..I will await the input of others in these matters.

Take care of yourself..we shall chat more soon.
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  #9  
Old 25-07-2019, 09:02 PM
MattMVS7 MattMVS7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
In my experience there is a big difference between the love of the Divine and the emotional love felt by humans. A difference which is much more than just conditional love and unconditional love.

The love of human beings often begins with infatuation, and infatuation has often been discribed as a state of insanity. The love of God, or the Divine, transforms your entire being; it is not merely emotional. You merge with it and it absorbs you. The love of God is very intoxicating and overwhelming to the point that you lose yourself in it.

There are no individuals in God's love there is just God's love; that is the only thing that exists. When you feel it you instantly know that this is the source of all joy, all love. God's love makes the word "love" seem puny. People have to transform themselves to experience the fine-ness of that unconditional love.

But we do not have to transform ourselves to experience human emotional love. Most of the time what we call human love is but lust. And in my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. But human emotional love comes and goes while the love of God is permanent and steadfast. This is my experience.

You say we must feel the Divine love to experience it. That means Divine love is a feeling, unlike the human, emotional love. You say the Divine love isn't transient. But, feelings are already transient things. For example, a feeling of hunger, thirst, pain, pleasure, etc. isn't everlasting. But, you're saying the Divine love is a feeling unlike all those other feelings, since it's an everlasting feeling that can't be taken away by brain damage, mental illnesses, etc.?
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Old 25-07-2019, 09:12 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMVS7
You say we must feel the Divine love to experience it. That means Divine love is a feeling, unlike the human, emotional love. You say the Divine love isn't transient. But, feelings are already transient things. For example, a feeling of hunger, thirst, pain, pleasure, etc. isn't everlasting. But, you're saying the Divine love is a feeling unlike all those other feelings, since it's an everlasting feeling that can't be taken away by brain damage, mental illnesses, etc.?

I also said that we have to first go through a transformation process to feel divine love,
but we do not have to go through a transformation process to feel emotional love.
We are here for self development and the process of spiritual development brings us
closer to God's love.
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