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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #21  
Old 29-11-2018, 11:11 PM
Convolution Convolution is offline
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Yeah, I agree, that is interesting about NDEs, and always leaves me wondering.
What I've thought is curious, though, is that people who go through LBL regression, and others, mention sometimes that while we are here, our spirit is making other choices, doing other "things" in the spirit realm, experiencing consciousness, free will. We here are just not aware of it. I have trouble reconciling that, as it seems like one, the other, or both will lose something at the end, if both expanded spirit and "human consciousness" were to merge as one. Which gets diluted into the pool of consciousness? Clearly if I am not aware of the rest of my spirit, I see myself as separate, currently, as it does as well, for it does not have full control over my choices while on the planet. So it seems that while in merging we may become bigger, some kind of free will may also get lost there (provided there is such volition of spirit separate from our consciousness)
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  #22  
Old 30-11-2018, 01:14 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convolution
Yeah, I agree, that is interesting about NDEs, and always leaves me wondering.
What I've thought is curious, though, is that people who go through LBL regression, and others, mention sometimes that while we are here, our spirit is making other choices, doing other "things" in the spirit realm, experiencing consciousness, free will. We here are just not aware of it. I have trouble reconciling that, as it seems like one, the other, or both will lose something at the end, if both expanded spirit and "human consciousness" were to merge as one. Which gets diluted into the pool of consciousness? Clearly if I am not aware of the rest of my spirit, I see myself as separate, currently, as it does as well, for it does not have full control over my choices while on the planet. So it seems that while in merging we may become bigger, some kind of free will may also get lost there (provided there is such volition of spirit separate from our consciousness)

I am not familiar with the LBL thing, but that does make sense to me. I don't really conceive of it as us being here and our spirit there, but rather consciousness focusing its awareness on a story of life to the point where it is consumed by the story. However, the story line is not one, but branches into many (infinite?) different story lines at each point in the story. Free will comes into play when our spirit decides which story line it is going to pursue, and those choices trace out a single story path amidst an ever expanding tree of branches within the story. Though the reader is consumed by the story and feels like it is the main character, it is also the one deciding which page it is going to turn to, and hence what the next chapter will entail. When the story ends, the reader looses that sense of "being" the human (or whatever) that was the main character in the story, but retains the growth that comes from the experience itself. The experience of life (well any experience really) would be just a particular focusing or narrowing of consciousness. The spirit forgetting for a time that it is formless, timeless, and infinite, and escaping into the story of a limited and finite character navigating through an infinite maze of choices. This narrowing and focusing of its consciousness allows it to have a first person experience that cannot be had through an otherwise third person omniscient point of view.

While in a dream, our consciousness has full control of the universe within that dream. Unless it is in a shared dream with other points of consciousness, then it has shared control. Yet it always has full control of how it will respond to what that universe presents to it in the present moment. Then that shared universe (along with all the other consciousnesses participating in it) will have to respond to its choices. It is a co-creator of the reality in which it has placed its awareness, both creating and experiencing that shared virtual reality.
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  #23  
Old 01-12-2018, 03:18 AM
Colorado Colorado is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convolution
What an amazing experience, Colorado! Thank you for sharing!
Do you have any idea as to why you would have no recollection during the beginning of the nde? I've heard that can happen sometimes, as it seemed to for Eben Alexander as well, for example. Just haven't quite figured out why

Hi,

Do you mean the actual dying process? I have my theory...although I've not thought about it much.

I think some souls, well all souls are different...we are made of energy, and energy has different vibrational frequencies...some travel faster than others.

For me, I was young, healthy, and full of energy in my 20s...and at that point in my life, I was the kind of fearless person that would jump into the deep end of the ocean, off a cliff...full of enthusiasm. So, I have no doubt in my mind, that I wouldn't have any problem letting go, and moving on....real fast.
Where as some others might have had their own reasons to be holding on...and each situation is different.

I'm sure if my NDE wasn't brought on by my own callous, mistake in youth, and say for instance...I had cancer or something, there might have been more forethought in the entirety of the experience (fear of the unknown, leaving loved ones behind, ECT)
I think the energy we think and feel with, is directly from our souls energy...But I'm not sure it's the exact same kind, based off another dream I had at that time.

I can only describe the variations of our energy as the difference between the still Waters of a lake, and the rushing water of a river or stream...we all go through life with different speed, ideas, feelings, ECT...that are directly in conjunction with the speed of our souls frequency...that is when we aren't deliberately controlling it. Much like the energy of a small toddler...before they learn rules, discipline, consequences, and to think before they act. They just go...wherever, as fast as they
can. That was me, up until I got my fair share of being burned one too many times.

My personal opinion of consciousness, is separated by the idea that maybe we are all Sparks off the sparkler, drops of water from the sea...until we are back into the light I saw. Somehow are only separated by our experiences and memories.

I could be wrong, because I didn't go into the light...I did not see for myself, exactly how that works.

I know from my own observation of my NDE, and the experiences afterwards...that I definitely did see separate entities of consciousness...but that doesn't mean that I saw everything, or how that is, infact...I don't even think I paid attention to it.
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  #24  
Old 01-12-2018, 06:36 AM
Convolution Convolution is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
I am not familiar with the LBL thing, but that does make sense to me. I don't really conceive of it as us being here and our spirit there, but rather consciousness focusing its awareness on a story of life to the point where it is consumed by the story. However, the story line is not one, but branches into many (infinite?) different story lines at each point in the story. Free will comes into play when our spirit decides which story line it is going to pursue, and those choices trace out a single story path amidst an ever expanding tree of branches within the story. Though the reader is consumed by the story and feels like it is the main character, it is also the one deciding which page it is going to turn to, and hence what the next chapter will entail. When the story ends, the reader looses that sense of "being" the human (or whatever) that was the main character in the story, but retains the growth that comes from the experience itself. The experience of life (well any experience really) would be just a particular focusing or narrowing of consciousness. The spirit forgetting for a time that it is formless, timeless, and infinite, and escaping into the story of a limited and finite character navigating through an infinite maze of choices. This narrowing and focusing of its consciousness allows it to have a first person experience that cannot be had through an otherwise third person omniscient point of view.

While in a dream, our consciousness has full control of the universe within that dream. Unless it is in a shared dream with other points of consciousness, then it has shared control. Yet it always has full control of how it will respond to what that universe presents to it in the present moment. Then that shared universe (along with all the other consciousnesses participating in it) will have to respond to its choices. It is a co-creator of the reality in which it has placed its awareness, both creating and experiencing that shared virtual reality.
Speaking of dreams, I wonder why sometimes (rarely, for me) they are lucid, where you feel in control and aware, and at other times you are a sort of unaware participant, reacting. I wonder, would the afterlife be more like the latter, where things can happen fast, you react but don't feel completely in control? What explains that dream phenomena?
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  #25  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:47 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convolution
Speaking of dreams, I wonder why sometimes (rarely, for me) they are lucid, where you feel in control and aware, and at other times you are a sort of unaware participant, reacting. I wonder, would the afterlife be more like the latter, where things can happen fast, you react but don't feel completely in control? What explains that dream phenomena?


Good question. I don't know that dreams work the same for everyone. I know when I read posts about dreams from others, I often think that their experience is very different from mine. For me dreams are my subconscious mind processing the events of my life to try to gain an understanding. Maybe even the conscious mind to some extend during lucid dreams...which are rare for me as well. I think it important to keep in mind that whether I feel in control in the dream or not, my mind is creating the whole thing so it is my mind that is in control of that whole world. I don't typically remember my dreams but when I do it is usually because my subconscious mind has resolved some burning question I didn't even know it was working on and wants me to know about it. Everything in those dreams is a metaphor for something different. It is as if the mind is taking a concept and using forms that are totally different then the ones it experienced in a waking state to represent that concept. This I believe it does because by using very different forms to represent the same concept, the concept can be seen and examined clearly. The way it works is that the concept can be seen by what is similar in the otherwise very different situations. This is sort of like why ,metaphors, analogies, and parables often work better to communicate something better than a direct explanation. I tend to think life (or lives) works this way as well.

This also brings home the point to me that while I feel like I am my thoughts, the vast majority of the "me" I have constructed as part of this life experience lies outside of my present moment awareness.
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  #26  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:47 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convolution
Speaking of dreams, I wonder why sometimes (rarely, for me) they are lucid, where you feel in control and aware, and at other times you are a sort of unaware participant, reacting. I wonder, would the afterlife be more like the latter, where things can happen fast, you react but don't feel completely in control? What explains that dream phenomena?


Good question. I don't know that dreams work the same for everyone. I know when I read posts about dreams from others, I often think that their experience is very different from mine. For me dreams are my subconscious mind processing the events of my life to try to gain an understanding. Maybe even the conscious mind to some extend during lucid dreams...which are rare for me as well. I think it important to keep in mind that whether I feel in control in the dream or not, my mind is creating the whole thing so it is my mind that is in control of that whole world. I don't typically remember my dreams but when I do it is usually because my subconscious mind has resolved some burning question I didn't even know it was working on and wants me to know about it. Everything in those dreams is a metaphor for something different. It is as if the mind is taking a concept and using forms that are totally different then the ones it experienced in a waking state to represent that concept. This I believe it does because by using very different forms to represent the same concept, the concept can be seen and examined clearly. The way it works is that the concept can be seen by what is similar in the otherwise very different situations. This is sort of like why ,metaphors, analogies, and parables often work better to communicate something better than a direct explanation. I tend to think life (or lives) works this way as well.

This also brings home the point to me that while I feel like I am my thoughts, the vast majority of the "me" I have constructed as part of this life experience lies outside of my present moment awareness.
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  #27  
Old 02-12-2018, 04:33 AM
Convolution Convolution is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Good question. I don't know that dreams work the same for everyone. I know when I read posts about dreams from others, I often think that their experience is very different from mine. For me dreams are my subconscious mind processing the events of my life to try to gain an understanding. Maybe even the conscious mind to some extend during lucid dreams...which are rare for me as well. I think it important to keep in mind that whether I feel in control in the dream or not, my mind is creating the whole thing so it is my mind that is in control of that whole world. I don't typically remember my dreams but when I do it is usually because my subconscious mind has resolved some burning question I didn't even know it was working on and wants me to know about it. Everything in those dreams is a metaphor for something different. It is as if the mind is taking a concept and using forms that are totally different then the ones it experienced in a waking state to represent that concept. This I believe it does because by using very different forms to represent the same concept, the concept can be seen and examined clearly. The way it works is that the concept can be seen by what is similar in the otherwise very different situations. This is sort of like why ,metaphors, analogies, and parables often work better to communicate something better than a direct explanation. I tend to think life (or lives) works this way as well.
This also brings home the point to me that while I feel like I am my thoughts, the vast majority of the "me" I have constructed as part of this life experience lies outside of my present moment awareness.

Some good points, I agree with the dreams. I also like your closing hypothesis.
I think there are some who point out that perhaps dreams are more than just the mind creating an "adventure" of sorts- that you literally travel elsewhere, and interact with things that lie beyond your brain.
Either way, I think it is strange that our conscious will gets disengaged. What is the process by which it engages in choosing a path actively vs being a passive experiencer?
If the brain controls this disengagement, does it truly have that power over consciousness and free will, which are said to be foundational? If it isn't happening on the brain, but on the level of consciousness, then what part of me/you is it that chooses when to engage or disengage without us being aware of making that choice?
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  #28  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:53 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convolution
Some good points, I agree with the dreams. I also like your closing hypothesis.
I think there are some who point out that perhaps dreams are more than just the mind creating an "adventure" of sorts- that you literally travel elsewhere, and interact with things that lie beyond your brain.
Either way, I think it is strange that our conscious will gets disengaged. What is the process by which it engages in choosing a path actively vs being a passive experiencer?
If the brain controls this disengagement, does it truly have that power over consciousness and free will, which are said to be foundational? If it isn't happening on the brain, but on the level of consciousness, then what part of me/you is it that chooses when to engage or disengage without us being aware of making that choice?

I am not sure how consciousness gets engaged or disengaged with its own created universe. My brain is limited to understanding things in a four dimensional space time reality. Anything beyond that and the best it can do is try to use simile and metaphor to approximate it. Consciousness is of course always in control over the entire dream, however, I can see why at times it would want to be experiencing the dream from different points of view and different levels of control. Just as in life we are sometimes experiencing things through the point of view of the ego, and other times we are just experiencing them. Sometimes the experience is personal, and other times we are just experiencing it. Sometimes we are the actor, other times we are acted upon. Sometimes we are the creator, sometimes we are dealing with the creation of others. Different ways of experiencing, different perspectives, greater depth of understanding (hopefully).

As far as the power of the brain, I see the brain as created within consciousness. It is more like a conceptual tool used to provide focus and limitation to change the point of view of our awareness. Part of the "me" construct that consciousness adopts to have a personal first person experience of its own constructed reality. A point of view which it switches in and out of depending on the way in which it wishes to experience its reality in a given present moment.
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