im curious about pagans

Running - Be very very careful when looking up information on "pagan" traditions. Many of what people "know" now is usually wicca, which is a mish mash of what is left of many celtic peoples (pre christian eastern europeans). Some of the information is sound some is made up, and putting those together really doesnt give much respect to the "proper" traditions.

To put it simply, "pagan" means anything other then monotheism, and originally it meat "hillbilly" "country bumpkin" and the like. Very loosely put any religion that isnt abrahamic or monotheistic is "pagan"..

That being said, the sky and earth are still represented in christianity. Heaven, (" THE heavens) is the sky, while "hell" is below, in reality not much different from roman or greek traditions. They have always brought people in awe of life just staring at the stars in the sky. The sky and earth play a major part in many if not all pe christian traditions.

The big BIG thing, is that in christianity people think that there is nothing they can do but pray and give faith into ONE god, who is responsible for everything. In pagan traditions, it was a reciprical relationship. You give to the gods, and if they accept your gift they will answer. Burning bushels of wheat is a way to give thanks to demeter and persephone in hopes of a good spring season. Sacrificing bulls and boars to ares should give luck to those going to war. Those who wished safe travels on roads would offer something to hermes. At many meals you would dump the best food and burn it to the gods in greek traditions. Many pagans had the same difference in said traditions.

[running]

Originally Posted by Time

Running - Be very very careful when looking up information on "pagan" traditions. Many of what people "know" now is usually wicca, which is a mish mash of what is left of many celtic peoples (pre christian eastern europeans). Some of the information is sound some is made up, and putting those together really doesnt give much respect to the "proper" traditions.

To put it simply, "pagan" means anything other then monotheism, and originally it meat "hillbilly" "country bumpkin" and the like. Very loosely put any religion that isnt abrahamic or monotheistic is "pagan"..

That being said, the sky and earth are still represented in christianity. Heaven, (" THE heavens) is the sky, while "hell" is below, in reality not much different from roman or greek traditions. They have always brought people in awe of life just staring at the stars in the sky. The sky and earth play a major part in many if not all pe christian traditions.

The big BIG thing, is that in christianity people think that there is nothing they can do but pray and give faith into ONE god, who is responsible for everything. In pagan traditions, it was a reciprical relationship. You give to the gods, and if they accept your gift they will answer. Burning bushels of wheat is a way to give thanks to demeter and persephone in hopes of a good spring season. Sacrificing bulls and boars to ares should give luck to those going to war. Those who wished safe travels on roads would offer something to hermes. At many meals you would dump the best food and burn it to the gods in greek traditions. Many pagans had the same difference in said traditions.

Thanks time! From having read some of your posts you seem to have a lot of knowledge about these things.

[Jenny Crow]

[quote=Time]Running - Be very very careful when looking up information on "pagan" traditions. Many of what people "know" now is usually wicca, which is a mish mash of what is left of many celtic peoples (pre christian eastern europeans). Some of the information is sound some is made up, and putting those together really doesnt give much respect to the "proper" traditions.

Coming in late here, but just wanted to comment on the above statement about much of what people 'know' now is usually Wicca, which is a mish mash etc...

Yes, I suppose you could call it a mish-mash (a pagan mish-mash) - the Wiccan Tradition was put together by Gerald Gardner and his H. Preistess Doreen Valiente. Some of the material came from the New Forest coven which Gardner was a member of; some of the material came from Aleister Crowley and Gardner borrowed heavily from Ceremonial Magic; as well, a little of the old Witchcraft from pre-Gardnerian times was included. The Celtic influence is mainly seen in the Sabbats. The way in which it was put together made it a viable, strong path that worked well. But, and this is a big 'but', Wicca today is NOT the Wicca of the late 50's and 60's - it has become so watered down that it's hardly recognizable; Wicca was never meant to be this "if it feels right, it must be right" type of thing that incorporates angels and different pantheons as it, unfortunately, often is these days.

Whether you appreciate the Gardnerian tradition of Wicca or not, without that tradition and all the work that Gardner did, I'm sure we would not have such a large pagan movement today.

Originally, the question was asked about how one feels about the earth and sky. Many Witches and most pagans identify with the Earth, the Land. The earth is a living entity, the sacredness of the land is an age old concept. There is power in the land; there are currents running through the earth/land and some sensitive people can feel those things and become attuned to them and there will be a reciprocal relationship between a person and the land. The land can be very healing and one can find peace when connected to it. This is how I feel, at any rate and perhaps Running does too.

Sky is important too, this is the home of Hawk and Eagle as well as noisy Crow and little robin. It is the place where the stars live and the moon and sun and all these things can talk to us and bring us teachings of some kind.

Jenny Crow

[norseman]

Wicca is just the most recent branch growing on an ancient tree. The ancient tree is flourishing and healthy in Britain - in fact it is the only native belief/religion in Britain. Everything else is a foreign import.

Jenny Crow/Norseman

I know a bit about the history of wicca. The problem I see is that too many people see it as an original tradition, or somthing that surviced out of the past. The thing with wicca is it is not any ONE tradition, its gardner trying to revive western european traditions with a broad brush.

I am not saying it is "Wrong" only that you really need to understand that it is anything but a revivial of any single pagan tradition. Its a grouping of european traditions that were made to seem seemless. Sure many of the traditions used could be mishmashed but that does not mean by any way shape or form it is a surviving SINGLE tradition, which is a perfect representation of pre christian europe.

[norseman]

Time, Wicca is a pik-n-mix belief, with bits and pieces of many 19th century esoteric groups plus a smattering of Druidism and a religion grafted on from old fertility religions, all structured around a core of witchcraft.
Gardner was into everything going in western and eastern exotica plus the Celtic christian church [ he was an ordained priest !]. Making it an Initiatory faith was designed to give it an exclusivity to attract members. The concept of lineage often quoted is debatable in an organisation from the mid-1950's.

As time goes by, it becomes more popular in the US and less popular in the UK. The norm in the UK is self-declared Solitaries with no structured bureaucracy.
Where is seems to be of benefit is as an introduction to older beliefs, as it did for me. After 2 years, the lack of substance in Wicca led me into deeper paths.

Yes, but the point i was making is that people see wicca as a true representation of the celtic lore pre christian, and it unfortunately isnt that, it is pretty much as you describe above; a mish mash of celtic/pagan traditions from mostly west but some eastern euros too. It isnt ONE true religion or belief, or the ONE "true" pagan tradition of pre christian times. Its basically what we can salvage of a few of the belief structures that were around at that time

[norseman]

Sadly some wiccans think that their way is the one true only way.

[Jenny Crow]

Originally Posted by Time

Yes, but the point i was making is that people see wicca as a true representation of the celtic lore pre christian, and it unfortunately isnt that, it is pretty much as you describe above;

Well then, those people should do their research, read and read some more and do some more reading - then do some more research. They see it that way because they haven't bothered to educate themselves on the subject. Sounds a bit harsh, but it's true.

Jenny Crow

[Jenny Crow]

[quote=norseman
Where it seems to be of benefit is as an introduction to older beliefs, as it did for me. After 2 years, the lack of substance in Wicca led me into deeper paths.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree, I think this happens to a lot of people. It really is too bad though that today's wicca is just such a watered down version of the original. Some of today's authors produce a bunch of drivvle.

Jenny Crow