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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #121  
Old 15-01-2019, 10:32 AM
Pagandell Pagandell is offline
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What do you think about drinking in moderation
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  #122  
Old 15-01-2019, 02:31 PM
Lucky 1 Lucky 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagandell
What do you think about drinking in moderation


A very large study done recently shows conclusively that people who drink beer or wine in moderation a glass or two .....two or three times per week statistically tend to live longer than those who dont.

The scientists who did this study ........and it was long and exhaustive one......were also honest enough to admit that they don't know why.

They also point out that drinking past a certain amount and the life expectancy starts going down.....

If I can find a link to this study I'll post it.
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  #123  
Old 15-01-2019, 02:44 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 1
A very large study done recently shows conclusively that people who drink beer or wine in moderation a glass or two .....two or three times per week statistically tend to live longer than those who dont.

The scientists who did this study ........and it was long and exhaustive one......were also honest enough to admit that they don't know why.
These sort of studies will always be difficult when we seek conclusive evidence. There are other variables at work, one being that drinking, at least for most people, is accompanied by social life which can be stress reducing in ways.

I have also find articles, not too long ago, that mentioned even one glass is detrimental to health. It's also true that affluent people live longer, and tend to drink less. The totality of 'human health' depends on a great many variables and scientists would have a hard time to control for all of them. I'm not saying it's impossible but there's many variables that are hard to define but on a human (and spiritual) level we know, feel and experience they do play a key role..
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  #124  
Old 16-01-2019, 12:43 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
We live in a situation where we have choice. You are forsaking agency and rely much on relativism and materialist-reductionism.


You have to ignore what I have actually said to arrive at that conclusion.


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Humans got out of the wild and have agriculture and civilization. That is the reality. In this world, also with billions of humans, that also means veg diets are better to reduce animal suffering.. that too, is the reality.


As I said, given those circumstances, a vegan diet is possible, and ethically sound.


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Harping on about a bygone age, of which only a tiny % of humanity still relies, just isn’t relevant. We can’t use any negative consequence of civilization and hold it against vegetarianism.


The reason I contrasted the old world and currently existing remotely located tribes with the modern developed world is to point out that vegan ethic applies to the modern civilised conditions, but such ethics are not universal or divine.


Fact is, a major proportion of the world live in poverty and have subsistence lifestyles where veganism would be inapplicable.



Quote:
We exist in civilization.. we participate.. we consume within this setting. That is key, not what may still happen in very remote places or what happened many thousands of years ago..

Talking about compassion being “ego” and “delusional” is just you having issues Gem. The ability to be compassionate is universal and your focus on old contexts of the past are pointless exercises. We have choice and that will have consequences.




I have issues, but not the ones you imagine I have, and they are probably worse than you think. Everyone has issues, but I don't know you people well enough to know about them, and even if I did, it isn't up to me to to be the expert on you.


You could ignore what I said about how ethics depend on context, and the ethical dilemma concerning how the destructive economy makes veganism possible in the first place, or how Lucky1's food ethics probably have high integrity within his particular circumstances, but that's all I was saying.


The egomanic thing comes from 'divine veganism' which suggests if you are enlightened/evolved/woke you would definitely be a vegan and never touch meat, and if you are not a vegan it means you are not as 'spiritually evolved'. Then parade around on a puff of self aggrandisement virtue signalling how compassionate they are. That is not cool! It's not cool for animal consumers either.



But on the other hand, if a person has decided for ethical and health reasons to restrict meat from their diet, It's perfectly valid given our modern circumstances, and more power to them.



You can see how my perspective is reasonable and fair, and even though I find 'divine vegan' rhetoric moronic, I support the ethical and health choices of everyone (even though ethics invariably present dilemmas).
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  #125  
Old 16-01-2019, 01:10 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 1
A very large study done recently shows conclusively that people who drink beer or wine in moderation a glass or two .....two or three times per week statistically tend to live longer than those who dont.

The scientists who did this study ........and it was long and exhaustive one......were also honest enough to admit that they don't know why.


That means they saw a correlation, but couldn't establish any cause.


Quote:
They also point out that drinking past a certain amount and the life expectancy starts going down.....


The cause for that is well known.


Quote:
If I can find a link to this study I'll post it.




I would think that the reason moderate drinkers tend to live longer is they don't tend to be restrictive with what they consume and eat/drink lots of different stuff and thus get proper nutrition. The fact they are moderate with alcohol suggests they would be moderate overall. I think moderate consumers of food might tend to be more active than under eaters and over eatersas well. I just theorise that consuming a lot of different things, all in moderation, leads to a longer life - and alcohol, although correlated, isn't the cause of their longevity.
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  #126  
Old 16-01-2019, 08:48 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Yes.. there are differences between people, societies, and through the course of human history. This is a consequence of this world of change and it always discriminates, but it does not change who we are spiritually, and it doesn’t really matter if humanity bothered with that or not 10k BC. We exist now, and perhaps there is no better epoch to be a veg than it is now.

Veg diets are, less harmful to animals and their homes. You may say veg or fruit production kills but it’s not like meat eaters don’t eat those. In many countries you can see empty field upon empty field, most of it one crop grown to feed livestock. That is our context and what we should fix. We cannot return to a lost era pre-civilization. It is civilization that must become sustainable..

Here..
https://ourworldindata.org/wp-conten...graphic-01.png

71% habitable land.
50% of it is agriculture.
77% of agriculture is used by livestock.

Gem, you are in context ‘mode’ because you are focussing on materialism, but from a spiritual perspective we all have a divine spark, and there is love and compassion, for all life. Yet life needs to consume in this world, so we choose 'the lesser harms'. Animals have more senses than plants so there’s more pain and suffering involved if harmed. Similarly, humans can experience even more suffering so if one were to kill a human that is far worse, not to mention the suffering caused to loved ones as well. It’s hierarchical and while you may not believe it or rely on materialist explanations many of us do not. For us it is spiritual.

When you feel love and compassion and see a chicken you just don’t want to kill, or kick, or curse, or whatever.
Are veg people “divine” cause they're veg? No they are not. But non-violence is important nonetheless..
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  #127  
Old 16-01-2019, 09:55 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Yes.. there are differences between people, societies, and through the course of human history. This is a consequence of this world of change and it always discriminates, but it does not change who we are spiritually, and it doesn’t really matter if humanity bothered with that or not 10k BC. We exist now, and perhaps there is no better epoch to be a veg than it is now.


We both exist now in wealthy developed modernised environment, and as I said, the vegan ethic is perfectly valid in those circumstances, but most people alive on earth today live in financial poverty, and most of them in remote rural communities without much transport/electricity infrastructure which enables easily accessible food abundance, and veganism is impractical in those communities. There is no better epoch for veganism in rich developed environments, but this luxury applies to the minority of people on earth.


Quote:
Veg diets are, less harmful to animals and their homes. You may say veg or fruit production kills but it’s not like meat eaters don’t eat those. In many countries you can see empty field upon empty field, most of it one crop grown to feed livestock. That is our context and what we should fix. We cannot return to a lost era pre-civilization. It is civilization that must become sustainable..


True. Vegan lifestyle is less environmentally destructive in the food supply systems that feed urbanised populations, and as I said, vegan ethics are valid given those circumstances.


Quote:
Here..
https://ourworldindata.org/wp-conten...graphic-01.png

71% habitable land.
50% of it is agriculture.
77% of agriculture is used by livestock.

Gem, you are in context ‘mode’ because you are focussing on materialism


Huh?



Quote:
but from a spiritual perspective we all have a divine spark, and there is love and compassion, for all life. Yet life needs to consume in this world, so we choose 'the lesser harms'.


Totally.



Quote:
Animals have more senses than plants so there’s more pain and suffering involved if harmed. Similarly, humans can experience even more suffering so if one were to kill a human that is far worse, not to mention the suffering caused to loved ones as well. It’s hierarchical and while you may not believe it or rely on materialist explanations many of us do not. For us it is spiritual.


You're putting forth ethical considerations and calling them 'spiritual'. I guess our sense of morality does stem from a high virtue, though.


Quote:
When you feel love and compassion and see a chicken you just don’t want to kill, or kick, or curse, or whatever.


Of course, killing things because you want to is cruel.


Quote:
Are veg people “divine” cause they're veg? No they are not. But non-violence is important nonetheless..




Totally
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  #128  
Old 16-01-2019, 02:44 PM
Pagandell Pagandell is offline
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Fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
it could be argued that Lucky1 has a far more compassionate lifestyle than any vegan, but these appeals to compassion are merely ego stroking exercises used to virtue signal and bolster moral superiority,

This is the most crazy thing I have heard on sf so far, you would find it very hard to find some one with more compassion than a vegan in there life style.
I think it is you who has delusions of grandure ( as I know you directed this at me )and superiority, you may be good with words but I see no real spirituality or compassion in your words just a need to bolster your own ego.

Tbh I do not see what you are doing on this thread other than to bash vegans, but........I would be the last person to stop freedom of expression and any one is welcome on my threads.

Last edited by Pagandell : 16-01-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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  #129  
Old 16-01-2019, 03:01 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagandell
Tbh I do not see what you are doing on this thread other than to bash vegans, but........I would be the last person to stop freedom of expression and any one is welcome on my threads.
That is very kind of you Pagandell. I also agree that everyone should be able to discuss the topics here!

I do believe that in this case it is totally fruitless though.. Gem has his views and I have mine.
We have fundamentally different approaches to the issues raised, in how we view humans and our world..
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  #130  
Old 16-01-2019, 03:16 PM
Pagandell Pagandell is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
That is very kind of you Pagandell. I also agree that everyone should be able to discuss the topics here!

I do believe that in this case it is totally fruitless though.. Gem has his views and I have mine.
We have fundamentally different approaches to the issues raised, in how we view humans and our world..

I think it is fruitless/ boring when we go over the same thing again and again, I have learnt a lot from this thread so i'ts great to have feed back.
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