Identity and the phantom self

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I guess that depends on your perspective. From a Gestalt Reality perspective the sum of the parts isn't just greater than the whole but a 'new' being, and the ego is as much a part of that Gestalt Reality as anything else. When does denial and/or a cognitive disorder become Spirituality? The irony is that it's the ego as a self-entity that wears the label, chooses the definition and rejects what is not compatible with the thought processes.

I recently inherited a cat from a sick relative. From the start it was obvious that she had a very distinct personality and I’m certain that she has some semblance of a sense of self. She can clearly access memory and some kind of sense of history for functional purposes. I put in a cat flap and she got the hang of it in days. She wanders far from our garden but knows/remembers where she lives. She knows her name. She favours my wife over me as she is the one who feeds her. And yet it’s clear to me that she lives totally in the present. The memory that she does access is a present arising for present purposes.

What she clearly does not carry around is a narrative upheld, self-image - an extended story about herself and her life - the aberration of a thinking-derived, happened self.

This brings to mind a wonderful quote by Eckhart Tolle after his shift in perception: “I didn’t know at the time that what really happened was the mind-made self, with its heaviness, its problems, that lives between the unsatisfying past and the fearful future, collapsed. It dissolved. The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or "being-ness," just observing and watching.”

I resonate strongly with this and it’s clear as to what he’s indicating. But if someone were to be pedantic here they could insist that some semblance of a self structure must remain. It’s probably safe to surmise that at the time he still knew his own name, knew where he lived and had access to his past. It’s this default remaining structure that I referred to as the ‘body-mind-individuated-matrix’ in my opening post. And it’s the inability to see the (seemingly) subtle difference here that causes confusion in spiritual circles. Highlighting this was the point of the thread in the first place.

So on to your comment: “The irony is that it's the ego as a self-entity that wears the label, chooses the definition and rejects what is not compatible with the thought processes.” Well yes, if you are referring to the body-mind-individuated-matrix. But no, if you are referring to the ‘happened/memory extended narrative self’ as indicated above and in previous posts. That does nothing… for a very good reason.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Moondance

I recently inherited a cat from a sick relative. From the start it was obvious that she had a very distinct personality and I’m certain that she has some semblance of a sense of self. She can clearly access memory and some kind of sense of history for functional purposes. I put in a cat flap and she got the hang of it in days. She wanders far from our garden but knows/remembers where she lives. She knows her name. She favours my wife over me as she is the one who feeds her. And yet it’s clear to me that she lives totally in the present. The memory that she does access is a present arising for present purposes.

What she clearly does not carry around is a narrative upheld, self-image - an extended story about herself and her life - the aberration of a thinking-derived, happened self.

This brings to mind a wonderful quote by Eckhart Tolle after his shift in perception: “I didn’t know at the time that what really happened was the mind-made self, with its heaviness, its problems, that lives between the unsatisfying past and the fearful future, collapsed. It dissolved. The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or "being-ness," just observing and watching.”

I resonate strongly with this and it’s clear as to what he’s indicating. But if someone were to be pedantic here they could insist that some semblance of a self structure must remain. It’s probably safe to surmise that at the time he still knew his own name, knew where he lived and had access to his past. It’s this default remaining structure that I referred to as the ‘body-mind-individuated-matrix’ in my opening post. And it’s the inability to see the (seemingly) subtle difference here that causes confusion in spiritual circles. Highlighting this was the point of the thread in the first place.

So on to your comment: “The irony is that it's the ego as a self-entity that wears the label, chooses the definition and rejects what is not compatible with the thought processes.” Well yes, if you are referring to the body-mind-individuated-matrix. But no, if you are referring to the ‘happened/memory extended narrative self’ as indicated above and in previous posts. That does nothing… for a very good reason.

What was doing the reflection Tolle was referring to?

Originally Posted by Moondance

I recently inherited a cat from a sick relative. From the start it was obvious that she had a very distinct personality and I’m certain that she has some semblance of a sense of self. She can clearly access memory and some kind of sense of history for functional purposes. I put in a cat flap and she got the hang of it in days. She wanders far from our garden but knows/remembers where she lives. She knows her name. She favours my wife over me as she is the one who feeds her. And yet it’s clear to me that she lives totally in the present. The memory that she does access is a present arising for present purposes.

What she clearly does not carry around is a narrative upheld, self-image - an extended story about herself and her life - the aberration of a thinking-derived, happened self.

This brings to mind a wonderful quote by Eckhart Tolle after his shift in perception: “I didn’t know at the time that what really happened was the mind-made self, with its heaviness, its problems, that lives between the unsatisfying past and the fearful future, collapsed. It dissolved. The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or "being-ness," just observing and watching.”

I resonate strongly with this and it’s clear as to what he’s indicating. But if someone were to be pedantic here they could insist that some semblance of a self structure must remain. It’s probably safe to surmise that at the time he still knew his own name, knew where he lived and had access to his past. It’s this default remaining structure that I referred to as the ‘body-mind-individuated-matrix’ in my opening post. And it’s the inability to see the (seemingly) subtle difference here that causes confusion in spiritual circles. Highlighting this was the point of the thread in the first place.

So on to your comment: “The irony is that it's the ego as a self-entity that wears the label, chooses the definition and rejects what is not compatible with the thought processes.” Well yes, if you are referring to the body-mind-individuated-matrix. But no, if you are referring to the ‘happened/memory extended narrative self’ as indicated above and in previous posts. That does nothing… for a very good reason.

To be honest, as far as I'm concerned this only causes confusion, it's bad enough when Spirituality imports definitions from other fields of human understanding and redefines them for its own agenda, it's even more confusing when people invent their own terms. All you're really doing here is making heavy work of distinguishing the self from the ego in a Jungian context. Individuation is another Jungian term that's used in Spirituality and is the process of constructing the ego as a person finds their sense of self-identity and becomes an individual in their own right. What causes the confusion in Spiritual circles is the redefinition of the ego from a sense of "I am" to being the objectifying of judgements and prejudices for the sake of having a scapegoat to boost their own egos. The other problem is which 'self/Self' people identify with, which can cause threads like this to appear. If people actually understood what ego-death actually is all of this confusion wouldn't happen in the first place.


Too many wannabe psychologists with a history of having an opinion and an agenda.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey Ant


True empathy can only come from someone who has been through something similar, and often people have an instinctual knowing that the other person has been through it. Sometimes there's no need for words. And perhaps the greatest empathy we can have is for ourselves as we counter the harshest of judges we have - ourselves. Leaving it all behind and giving ourselves half a chance is often the best gift we can give ourselves, but I also think that not hating yourself takes a certain kind of person.


It's not a race though, because wherever you are there you are but just make sure you're not trying to get past yourself. Being free inside and out is a very Spiritual place to be.

Hi Greenslade,

I have empathy and then i don't.

I commiserate with those at the bottom of the ladder and those that struggle,but humans in general,nah i don't.

I have more empathy for animals.

As for slow and steady wins the race,it was just an analogy on healing.

Loving others,i keep at arms length,love is more to living life how i want to and freedomly express.

I may seem more on myself,but what else do i have when i've been my own worst enemy.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Iamit

What was doing the reflection Tolle was referring to?

Hi Iamit

You’d have to ask Mr Tolle that. My thoughts about it can be found in the above post.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

To be honest, as far as I'm concerned this only causes confusion, it's bad enough when Spirituality imports definitions from other fields of human understanding and redefines them for its own agenda, it's even more confusing when people invent their own terms. All you're really doing here is making heavy work of distinguishing the self from the ego in a Jungian context. Individuation is another Jungian term that's used in Spirituality and is the process of constructing the ego as a person finds their sense of self-identity and becomes an individual in their own right. What causes the confusion in Spiritual circles is the redefinition of the ego from a sense of "I am" to being the objectifying of judgements and prejudices for the sake of having a scapegoat to boost their own egos. The other problem is which 'self/Self' people identify with, which can cause threads like this to appear. If people actually understood what ego-death actually is all of this confusion wouldn't happen in the first place.


Too many wannabe psychologists with a history of having an opinion and an agenda.

Fascinating response. Though I say it myself, I don’t think that I could have been clearer than in my last post. But not everyone can see this (not everyone wants to see this) and it would be pointless to attempt to convince anyone. I don’t think that there’s any point in stretching this out any further as we are already repeating ourselves. We’ve both had an opportunity to make our points so we may as well leave it there.

Originally Posted by ant

Hi Greenslade,

I have empathy and then i don't.

I commiserate with those at the bottom of the ladder and those that struggle,but humans in general,nah i don't.

I have more empathy for animals.

As for slow and steady wins the race,it was just an analogy on healing.

Loving others,i keep at arms length,love is more to living life how i want to and freedomly express.

I may seem more on myself,but what else do i have when i've been my own worst enemy.

Howdo Ant


Empathy is also about your relationship with yourself, so if that's a bit flaky your empathy won't be so far behind. Not having empathy with people but having empathy with animals can tell you something though, and that will help your healing. Often empathy with yourself is the best kind of empathy you can have.

I guess now the real Journey for you is going from your own worst enemy to your own best friend, and that takes a huge amount of courage. It takes a huge paradigm shift in perceptions because not only do you have to drop judgement, for instance, you also have to put how you perceive yourself now into a completely different perspective and context. A large part of the healing process is not healing what happened, but healing your perceptions of what happened and how it came to that.

You do what you feel you have to do, because when you have somewhere stable to put your feet you have a better relationship with what's 'out there'.

[zorkchop]

“What causes the confusion in Spiritual circles is the re-definition” in and of EVERY-thing. It’s been going on for centuries . . . and by now . . . we have what we have.

The foundation of this is conventional wisdom. Mind can never understand beyond itself. The mind LOVES analysis and definition. It will engage in this endlessly . . . for mind knows no other way. If some belief or theory or definition “doesn’t fit” . . . change it so it does. This methodology is rampant . . . to and including the Eastern religions . . . and certainly the Western religions as well.

To discover and incorporate the original intent of each and every essential word . . . and indeed . . . what words are essential in the first place . . . is much of the game of the path.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hi Iamit

You’d have to ask Mr Tolle that. My thoughts about it can be found in the above post.

To reflect seems to suggest something is there doing the reflection. We know from our everyday experience that it feels like mind doing the reflecting/monitoring the health of the organism, attempting to solve where the dog may have taken our other sock ect. So the assertion that mind is not functioning in the usual way is contradicted by the reflection occurring. It may be clearer for the mind to say that a realization has occurred that the role of mind is protective and does not have to be limited or eliminated for spiritual progress and can be just left to do its valuable thing.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Howdo Ant


Empathy is also about your relationship with yourself, so if that's a bit flaky your empathy won't be so far behind. Not having empathy with people but having empathy with animals can tell you something though, and that will help your healing. Often empathy with yourself is the best kind of empathy you can have.

I guess now the real Journey for you is going from your own worst enemy to your own best friend, and that takes a huge amount of courage. It takes a huge paradigm shift in perceptions because not only do you have to drop judgement, for instance, you also have to put how you perceive yourself now into a completely different perspective and context. A large part of the healing process is not healing what happened, but healing your perceptions of what happened and how it came to that.

You do what you feel you have to do, because when you have somewhere stable to put your feet you have a better relationship with what's 'out there'.

Hey Greenslade,

I'm doing ok,hope all is well at your end and your family.

Sorry for the late reply as i'm dealing with something,a bug,and in my own way.

I get and understand what you've relayed,thanks.

Your one of a few,let alone relate on two fingers,someone that is not only open and honest,but relays with life experience and with all honesty.

Much appreciated.

Take care.: )