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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #141  
Old 07-12-2017, 04:48 AM
revolver revolver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blossomingtree
I'm not sure where the misconception is that people are "attached" to traditions.

It's like a bicycle, it has its utility and therefore is seen and respected as such. If someone wants to come on a bouncing ball and claim it also gets them the same destination (lol well maybe after a lot of bouncing on the spot ) - pointing out that it's not a bicycle is not "attachment to tradition" nor defence for the sake of it.

Furthermore (teehee) it's interesting to see some posters happy to have been the beneficiary of bikes, but happy to see them dismantled (who cares about everyone else). Religion/traditions without service are of limited value IMHO.

BT
People are certainly attached to their traditions, its one cause of a lot of fighting in the world, sadly.
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  #142  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:14 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolver
People are certainly attached to their traditions, its one cause of a lot of fighting in the world, sadly.
Hi revolver,

In that case it is not the tradition per se - that is a misapprehension.

More likely it is misapplication - people are attached to prior form and are either unable or unwilling to adapt the truth content of the tradition to the context of their unique requirements in the current era. The reason any viable tradition has continuity is because any practitioner has successfully done this; it is actually the inverse of attachment.

Otherwise what happens is the attempt to preserve institutions which have not adapted truth content to the contemporary need - but have simply codified the past into a crystallized and inflexible dogma which does tempt that superficial attachment to form, and consequently requires external submission to the institution, by un-self-examined and complacent proponents and adherents alike. That is what preserves obsolete institutions, as distinct from viable traditions.

The conflict comes from attachment to superficial form and subsequent separativity, and consequent aggression toward exclusion.

~ J
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  #143  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:40 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolver
People are certainly attached to their traditions, its one cause of a lot of fighting in the world, sadly.

What Jyotir said (me being lazy )

More seriously, agreed with Jyotir's comments. Therefore, not discounting there are those that are attached to the outer shell and form of the religion/tradition - but that there is an inner, distinguishable difference as well i.e. not all discussion of traditions is due to attachment thereof. Again, to use a layman's example, if a bike has utility and got us to Paris, I see no reason to disparage the bike. If someone wants to say forget about or abandon bikes! - well I say go for it, but why get in the way of so many before us who still want to arrive in Paris too. i.e. Even if we arrive, we want to see others come too.

In Buddhism, the Buddha himself said his teachings are akin to a raft (Diamond Sutra) - it is is used to cross the river. Certainly Buddha did not teach attachment to a tradition or religion - because the objective and ideal is to release yourself from all bounds and ties to suffering. Utilizing the tradition/raft one does not become entangled in it as a believer but as an adherent. In doing so, ironically, how can one not have great respect and appreciation for the tradition (the bike) that has thousands of years of wisdom embedded, in order to guide people to the very real destination of Nibbana and the release of suffering on Earth.

Two stories:

The morning after Philip Kapleau and Professor Phillips arrived at Ryutakuji Monastery they were given a tour of the place by Abbot Soen Nakagawa. Both Americans had been heavily influenced by tales of ancient Chinese masters who’d destroyed sacred texts, and even images of the Buddha, in order to free themselves from attachment to anything. They were thus surprised and disturbed to find themselves being led into a ceremonial hall, where the Roshi invited them to pay respects to a statue of the temple’s founder, Hakuin Zenji, by bowing and offering incense.

On seeing Nakagawa bow before the image, Phillips couldn’t contain himself, and burst out: “The old Chinese masters burned or spit on Buddha statues! Why do you bow down before them?”

“If you want to spit, you spit,” replied the Roshi. “I prefer to bow.”

One Bird One Stone: 108 American Zen Stories by Sean Murphy


In this exclusive interview with the Buddhist Channel, Ajahn Sumedho – the foremost western disciple of the late Ajahn Chah – talks about how gratitude and respect for tradition have preserved and sustained his training as a monk. And in the process, he explains how these values have preserved the Thai forest tradition, the Buddha’s pristine Dhamma and its spread throughout the world.

The Buddhist word in Pali for gratitude is Kataññuta. Understanding it deeply means not just repaying debt but to give with joy, not thinking of “I”, myself. And it is on this basis that I have been operating ever since." - Ajahn Sumedho


https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=3316

This is just my perspective anyway, and not disagreeing that there are some who (either by design of the tradition or their own inner inclination) are still attached only to form - but in inferring - as I believe some posters here did - that this is what is at play in this non-duality forum is misplaced, in my opinion.

BT
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  #144  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:27 PM
revolver revolver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi revolver,

In that case it is not the tradition per se - that is a misapprehension.

More likely it is misapplication - people are attached to prior form and are either unable or unwilling to adapt the truth content of the tradition to the context of their unique requirements in the current era. The reason any viable tradition has continuity is because any practitioner has successfully done this; it is actually the inverse of attachment.

Otherwise what happens is the attempt to preserve institutions which have not adapted truth content to the contemporary need - but have simply codified the past into a crystallized and inflexible dogma which does tempt that superficial attachment to form, and consequently requires external submission to the institution, by un-self-examined and complacent proponents and adherents alike. That is what preserves obsolete institutions, as distinct from viable traditions.

The conflict comes from attachment to superficial form and subsequent separativity, and consequent aggression toward exclusion.

~ J
Yes I can agree with that, institutions are man made and can never hold the truth, in fact it kills the truth.
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He is neither arrogant nor humble; he is simply himself."
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  #145  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:34 PM
revolver revolver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blossomingtree
What Jyotir said (me being lazy )

More seriously, agreed with Jyotir's comments. Therefore, not discounting there are those that are attached to the outer shell and form of the religion/tradition - but that there is an inner, distinguishable difference as well i.e. not all discussion of traditions is due to attachment thereof. Again, to use a layman's example, if a bike has utility and got us to Paris, I see no reason to disparage the bike. If someone wants to say forget about or abandon bikes! - well I say go for it, but why get in the way of so many before us who still want to arrive in Paris too. i.e. Even if we arrive, we want to see others come too.

In Buddhism, the Buddha himself said his teachings are akin to a raft (Diamond Sutra) - it is is used to cross the river. Certainly Buddha did not teach attachment to a tradition or religion - because the objective and ideal is to release yourself from all bounds and ties to suffering. Utilizing the tradition/raft one does not become entangled in it as a believer but as an adherent. In doing so, ironically, how can one not have great respect and appreciation for the tradition (the bike) that has thousands of years of wisdom embedded, in order to guide people to the very real destination of Nibbana and the release of suffering on Earth.

Two stories:

The morning after Philip Kapleau and Professor Phillips arrived at Ryutakuji Monastery they were given a tour of the place by Abbot Soen Nakagawa. Both Americans had been heavily influenced by tales of ancient Chinese masters who’d destroyed sacred texts, and even images of the Buddha, in order to free themselves from attachment to anything. They were thus surprised and disturbed to find themselves being led into a ceremonial hall, where the Roshi invited them to pay respects to a statue of the temple’s founder, Hakuin Zenji, by bowing and offering incense.

On seeing Nakagawa bow before the image, Phillips couldn’t contain himself, and burst out: “The old Chinese masters burned or spit on Buddha statues! Why do you bow down before them?”

“If you want to spit, you spit,” replied the Roshi. “I prefer to bow.”

One Bird One Stone: 108 American Zen Stories by Sean Murphy


In this exclusive interview with the Buddhist Channel, Ajahn Sumedho – the foremost western disciple of the late Ajahn Chah – talks about how gratitude and respect for tradition have preserved and sustained his training as a monk. And in the process, he explains how these values have preserved the Thai forest tradition, the Buddha’s pristine Dhamma and its spread throughout the world.

The Buddhist word in Pali for gratitude is Kataññuta. Understanding it deeply means not just repaying debt but to give with joy, not thinking of “I”, myself. And it is on this basis that I have been operating ever since." - Ajahn Sumedho


https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=3316

This is just my perspective anyway, and not disagreeing that there are some who (either by design of the tradition or their own inner inclination) are still attached only to form - but in inferring - as I believe some posters here did - that this is what is at play in this non-duality forum is misplaced, in my opinion.

BT
Yes institutions and rituals can point to truth, but they are never the truth in themselves, sadly many do cling to their preferred institutions and never adventure further than that. When I left my church many years ago i was looked at as a backslider, and everyone prayed for me, I felt sad for them because in my own heart I have experienced the truth and no longer needed the church, it was my stepping stone.
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He is neither arrogant nor humble; he is simply himself."
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  #146  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:40 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Understood, revolver.
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