Non-duality and Ethics & Morality

I recall in at least one thread in this sub-forum all judgments or choices being dismissed as a product of duality and contrary to non-dualism, even ethics and morality. Just don't engage in thinking along those lines and you're practicing or living non-dualism.

Such a line of thinking seems to ignore the concept of Karma, and if one subscribes to a spirituality of Hindu non-dualism one cannot toss out the concept of Karma.

I'll point to none other than Swami Vivekananda's 1893 Chicago address on Hinduism to illustrate what one of the more renowned non-dualists of recent times had to say about ethics and morality.

https://swamivivekananda150.blogspot.../hinduism.html

"The Hindus have received their religion through revelation, the Vedas. They hold that the Vedas are without beginning and without end. It may sound ludicrous to this audience, how a book can be without beginning or end. But by the Vedas no books are meant. They mean the accumulated treasury of spiritual laws discovered by different persons in different times. Just as the law of gravitation existed before its discovery, and would exist if all humanity forgot it, so is it with the laws that govern the spiritual world. The moral, ethical, and spiritual relations between soul and soul and between individual spirits and the Father of all spirits, were there before their discovery, and would remain even if we forgot them."




Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and happier rebirths, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and bad rebirths. How does one achieve enlightenment and escape from the cycle of rebirths if one ignores or even rejects the concept of right and wrong? In other words what I think some are saying about real non-duality is a sure bet to keep them trapped in duality for at least one more cycle of death and rebirth.

[inavalan]

A first thought that comes to mind is that ethics and morality aren't absolute.

Originally Posted by inavalan

A first thought that comes to mind is that ethics and morality aren't absolute.

Selfless vs. selfish. That's a recurring theme in the Gita and Krishna is nudging Arjuna to selfless action. Karma Yoga.

Selfish action = bad Karma. Selfless action = good Karma.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by inavalan

A first thought that comes to mind is that ethics and morality aren't absolute.

........

Every 'assessment' (of responsibility, etc.) and therefore 'choice' is subjectively determined in my view.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Selfless vs. selfish. That's a recurring theme in the Gita and Krishna is nudging Arjuna to selfless action. Karma Yoga.

Selfish action = bad Karma. Selfless action = good Karma.

In my understanding, in spite of what others believe, karma isn't about actions, but about thoughts. Our thoughts eventually materialize in situations that cause similar thoughts, with no judgement of good / bad, and definitely not a judgement passed by anybody physical or non-physical.

Also, apparently clear cut concepts like selfless and selfish, historically and culturally had different interpretations. An universal law as karma is, can't apply differently function of what a group believes.

Anyway, I shouldn't have interjected in this discussion, as probably I can't contribute to what you seem to intend to debate here.

Originally Posted by davidsun

........

Every 'assessment' (of responsibility, etc.) and therefore 'choice' is subjectively determined in my view.

So you don't have a problem with "Neti Neti" used for selfish reasons? I mean it is subjective and who are you to argue with the assessor's subjective determination?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

So you don't have a problem with "Neti Neti" used for selfish reasons? I mean it is subjective and who are you to argue with the assessor's subjective determination?

I am not 'arguing' with the fact that they do so, or their right to do so. I am presenting counter-proposition to the effect that foolishness delusionality and betrayal of Life is involved.

No 'problem; - just standing up for what I (subjectively!) think is Life Itself calls for.

Originally Posted by inavalan

In my understanding, in spite of what others believe, karma isn't about actions, but about thoughts. Our thoughts eventually materialize in situations that cause similar thoughts, with no judgement of good / bad, and definitely not a judgement passed by anybody physical or non-physical.

Also, apparently clear cut concepts like selfless and selfish, historically and culturally had different interpretations. An universal law as karma is, can't apply differently function of what a group believes.

Anyway, I shouldn't have interjected in this discussion, as probably I can't contribute to what you seem to intend to debate here.

Karma is exactly about action, and willful thinking, selfless or selfish, is action too. However thinking about unjustly killing someone is not going to be as detrimental to one's karma account as actually carrying out said killing and similarly thinking about how one would like to help others without any thought of reward is not as beneficial as actually going out and helping others without regard for reward.

https://vedanta.org/yoga-spiritual-practice/

“Karma-Yoga is the attaining through unselfish work of that freedom which is the goal of all human nature. Every selfish action, therefore, retards our reaching the goal, and every unselfish action takes us towards the goal; that is why the only definition that can be given of morality is this: That which is selfish is immoral, and that which is unselfish is moral.”

—The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Vol 1, Ch 8 The Ideal of Karma Yoga

The intent of this post isn't debate but edification. Many say they subscribe to non-dualism as their spiritual path but are either ignorant of, or reject much of the teachings of that particular path to realization.

[iamthat]

The nature of personality is expressed in selfish desire based on duality and separation. The nature of Soul is expressed through selfless service, based on non-duality and non-separation. The issue is, do we identify with personality or with Soul consciousness?

On the level of personality we are dealing with choices, ethical actions vs unethical actions. This is nothing to do with artificial social morals - what is acceptable in one society may not be acceptable in another. It comes down to whether our actions cause harm to ourselves or others.

On the level of Soul consciousness, then we recognise that actions are simply actions and the Self remains untouched by all actions. However, while we are in the worlds of form we have to act, but actions are motivated by love and compassion in the spirit of true harmlessness.

Peace

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I recall in at least one thread in this sub-forum all judgments or choices being dismissed as a product of duality and contrary to non-dualism, even ethics and morality. Just don't engage in thinking along those lines and you're practicing or living non-dualism.

Such a line of thinking seems to ignore the concept of Karma, and if one subscribes to a spirituality of Hindu non-dualism one cannot toss out the concept of Karma.

I'll point to none other than Swami Vivekananda's 1893 Chicago address on Hinduism to illustrate what one of the more renowned non-dualists of recent times had to say about ethics and morality.

https://swamivivekananda150.blogspot.../hinduism.html

"The Hindus have received their religion through revelation, the Vedas. They hold that the Vedas are without beginning and without end. It may sound ludicrous to this audience, how a book can be without beginning or end. But by the Vedas no books are meant. They mean the accumulated treasury of spiritual laws discovered by different persons in different times. Just as the law of gravitation existed before its discovery, and would exist if all humanity forgot it, so is it with the laws that govern the spiritual world. The moral, ethical, and spiritual relations between soul and soul and between individual spirits and the Father of all spirits, were there before their discovery, and would remain even if we forgot them."




Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and happier rebirths, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and bad rebirths. How does one achieve enlightenment and escape from the cycle of rebirths if one ignores or even rejects the concept of right and wrong? In other words what I think some are saying about real non-duality is a sure bet to keep them trapped in duality for at least one more cycle of death and rebirth.

You seem to be onto something.....

As for me, duality exist because we judge what is right and wrong. If we live a life of "just being'; the judging dissolves. Karma then appears to be an illusion.