Spirituality, mental health and nutrition

[Altair]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

I would say you have uncovered something which some might not want to talk about because it tramples on precious belief system grounds. For example, Jesus fasting for 40 days: his "spiritual experience" during that ordeal must have been very unique.

And it's not just a 40 day fast, even something as common as a vitamin D deficiency can lead to brain issues. This is why I'm really interested in super healthy people having these sort of experiences, because that excludes at least some purely physiological explanations. It worries me as forceful health decline is such a big thing throughout history, seeking experiences through methods that cause lack of health.

I think if a middle way means porridge and a banana a day then it's not extreme asceticism but it's still inadequate. If you were to follow this for years you develop health issues. I'd be interested in super healthy people, champions of life, of a sort, to have these kind of experiences. Say a fit king or leader instead of the fasting priest or skinny shaman..

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Altair

And it's not just a 40 day fast, even something as common as a vitamin D deficiency can lead to brain issues. This is why I'm really interested in super healthy people having these sort of experiences, because that excludes at least some purely physiological explanations. It worries me as forceful health decline is such a big thing throughout history, seeking experiences through methods that cause lack of health.

I think if a middle way means porridge and a banana a day then it's not extreme asceticism but it's still inadequate. If you were to follow this for years you develop health issues. I'd be interested in super healthy people, champions of life, of a sort, to have these kind of experiences. Say a fit king or leader instead of the fasting priest or skinny shaman..

SPOT ON!

How many people have had 'experiences' only to find out they have been taking Oxycontin? And then there is the person who got drunk...... and had a close encounter with God as they prostrated themselves in front of the porcelain 'altar'. Some even went so far to get a blessing from God as evident with the water that is still present on the top of their head visible as wet hair.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by janielee

Oh my gosh, could you be any more willingly and intentionally and grossly, uninformed, and perhaps even more problematic, uninterested in the facts you claim to be seeking? And so willing to pass lies and mistruths out into the ether?

Your response, in response to being given pertinent information (hint: Middle Way, Buddha, Awakening), and not even doing ANY* research, tells me you are not interested in any truths, only your own made up stories. I see why you found one blog in the whole internet to support you now, wow that was some scientific effort!

Hint*: a 1 second internet search on Buddha’s enlightenment would have showed you he had no mystical experiences under duress, starvation or any such state. Even a 2 minute scan would have found countless tales saying this.

I’ve promptly lost all respect for your authenticity, and the genuineness of your inquiries. A friend once told me that wisdom is the love of truth. Looks like you’re more into self admiration...

Too bad, I withdraw my earlier agreement, cheers. I’ll put you on ignore, times too precious to deal with liars, lies and those that so willingly spread them.

Jl

At the end of February, after Mahashivratri, I will be doing the Somwar Vrat Katha as a "right of passage" according to my tradition and belief system. This entails total fasting and penance for sixteen consecutive Mondays...and I do not expect a non-Shaivite to understand. ;)

I would never go on a 40 day fast nor do rigorous tapasya, as I deem it unecessary, but that is just me (and Buddha too, it seems).

I don't know if prolonged fasting causes hallucinations in which one experiences unity with the Divine when it could also cause hallucinations which may make one believe they are Spider-Man or they are being chased by demons...why should prolonged fasting only result in profound "mystical" hallucinations out of the multitude of possible variables?

I would not do a fast (water fast) for any longer than three consecutive days anyway and I feel that if one is into fasting, penance etc, three days per month is enough, just to clear out the system....which usually follows doing a gallbladder flush and/or colon flush including colonic irrigation.

The other 27-28 days should consist of a diet of easily digestible wholesome food with great nutritious benefit, avoiding refined carbs and only eating animal protein in moderation (about twice a week) or not at all.

Being in ketosis helps the body eliminate damaged cells and other waste products, helps energy and blood circulation and produces a "lightness of being" which makes meditation easier and contributes to positive spiritual experiences.

For everything else, I have just been to my doctor, explained what was going on with all this constant bickering on here...which was making me feel depressed and anything but "spiritual" on a so-called "spiritual forum" and so, I am under doctor's orders to take an internet break for one week every month to see how I feel....I call it "internet menstruation".

As such, I won't be replying to anyone questioning this post as I am also learning to say what I want and then forget about it, totally irrespective of who may query it, or ask me questions about it or anything.

If anybody wishes to contact me about my posts, they can do so via PM and not put it in the public domain...but I doubt anybody is gonna do that because I am robbing them of the opportunity to have an "audience" which is what I believe this is truly all about.

[Altair]

I’m not sure vegan ketosis would be a good choice, as you’d starve yourself of fat. The lack of fat can lead to brain issues, as it depends on fat. Eggs/dairy/meat, one way or the other, is part of a healthy diet. Without it we become skinny, unless if we eat loads and loads of carbs I suppose. This is overlooked with the diets in retreats I’ve checked, they eat little and simple.

I’d love to see a super fit, healthy person get “enlightenment”, not a skinny monk..
It would give more weight to their experience, imho. Others may disagree with me on this.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Altair

I’m not sure vegan ketosis would be a good choice, as you’d starve yourself of fat. The lack of fat can lead to brain issues, as it depends on fat. Eggs/dairy/meat, one way or the other, is part of a healthy diet. Without it we become skinny, unless if we eat loads and loads of carbs I suppose. This is overlooked with the diets in retreats I’ve checked, they eat little and simple.

I’d love to see a super fit, healthy person get “enlightenment”, not a skinny monk..
It would give more weight to their experience, imho. Others may disagree with me on this.

Avocadoes, coconut, olive oil, flax seed (high in Omega 3), nuts like Brazil nuts and macadamias...etc..

As for super-fit people reaching enlightenment...that would all depend on who you would personally consider to be "enlightened" by your personal standards of what "enlightenment" is, isn't it? and that would apply across the board and be the same for an athlete or a skinny monk.

If you would like one example, we may take Wim Hof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof

However, you may retort that extreme temperature may cause one to hallucinate, or rigorous training regimes may cause one to hallucinate, or a super fit person may have a mental disorder causing them to hallucinate....there are also many "skinny monks" who may not be "enlightened" either - some may fast for weeks and not even hallucinate...others may fast for the same amount of time and start tripping balls...

I just don't understand how certain groups of people can be generalised and pigeonholed according to the unsubstantiated opinion of one or two (individual) people...this makes no sense to my way of thinking, so if you would like to do me the courtesy of explaining how that can be so, that would be good....even though I probably won't be able to read it until next week. Cheers.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Altair

And it's not just a 40 day fast, even something as common as a vitamin D deficiency can lead to brain issues. This is why I'm really interested in super healthy people having these sort of experiences, because that excludes at least some purely physiological explanations. It worries me as forceful health decline is such a big thing throughout history, seeking experiences through methods that cause lack of health.

I think if a middle way means porridge and a banana a day then it's not extreme asceticism but it's still inadequate. If you were to follow this for years you develop health issues. I'd be interested in super healthy people, champions of life, of a sort, to have these kind of experiences. Say a fit king or leader instead of the fasting priest or skinny shaman..

How would you have liked it, eating manna for 40 years as you wander about in the desert?

But then, there might be more to that account then that which meets the eyes.

40 years in Egypt.
40 years with Jethro.
40 years in the desert.

There is symmetry in the time periods - each 40 years long which indicates to me an inner message.

[Shivani Devi]

Before I go off for a while...

As I was heading off to sleep tonight, I was reminded about all of those podgy monks who many have claimed to be enlightened..

Swami Yogananda

https://www.google.com/search?q=swam...OX289DY5SYf7NM

Swami Sivananda Saraswati

https://images.app.goo.gl/5ZJUh7KTE1N45Kbr8

Swami Nityananda

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...IPZxe5n5w&s=10

Nirmala Devi

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...g7Wrcz0qw&s=10

These were just off the top of my head...I am sure I can find many more...

Which goes to show one thing...the opposite of "super skinny" doesn't necessarily mean "super fit".

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

However, you may retort that extreme temperature may cause one to hallucinate, or rigorous training regimes may cause one to hallucinate, or a super fit person may have a mental disorder causing them to hallucinate....there are also many "skinny monks" who may not be "enlightened" either - some may fast for weeks and not even hallucinate...others may fast for the same amount of time and start tripping balls...

Possibly. Haven't looked into it deeply enough, though I'm experientially familiar with cold showering and swimming and his breathing exercises.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I just don't understand how certain groups of people can be generalised and pigeonholed according to the unsubstantiated opinion of one or two (individual) people...this makes no sense to my way of thinking, so if you would like to do me the courtesy of explaining how that can be so, that would be good....even though I probably won't be able to read it until next week. Cheers.

There's always some generalizing going on, this is unavoidable. In short.. poor diet, lack of sleep, and prolonged fasting (which is basically starvation) are known causes of hallucination. I think good health is preferable, as is reducing a mystical experience to poor health.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

How would you have liked it, eating manna for 40 years as you wander about in the desert?

I don't think I would like it, because 'mana' seems to be just bread. I don't believe there was a God who conjured up a rain of bread. You?

[sea-dove]

Originally Posted by Altair

Prolonged fasting in the Bible:

• Moses fasted for forty days on Sinai while "talking to God" - the result was the 10 Commandments (Exodus 34:28).
  
• After a final meal, Elijah also fasted forty days as he journeyed to Horeb, where, in a cave, he experiences a range of effects, including a commandment about who is to be future king of Syria (1 Kings 19:8-15).
  
• Jesus also fasted 40 days and as a result, experienced a battle with Satan in a series of visions (Matthew 4:1-11).

''As a species, we have been artificially inducing mystical experiences for as long as there are records of our behaviour. '' [from: http://www.humanreligions.info/hallucinations.html ]

I dont find extreme fasting does bring on special experiences. I've done over 40 day fasting on different occasions and once did far more than a 40 day fast (6-7 week fast I think was after my breatharian initiation, I stopped this as my family freaked completely out as I lost a lot of weight, went from an Australian size 14-16 down to a size 8-10). On those occassions I've only had a metaphysical experience twice and one of those times I wasn't outside what I often used to get when not fasting.

The only extreme experience I've had while fasting was at the start of a 40 day fast where I also had no fluids for over 7 days either but it was early in the total fast (it was 8th or 9th day I drank (I'd have to look up my journal for which it was) , I was in a terrible state by then with the no fluids, frothing white at the mouth, black under the eyes. I went to meditate by a stream but on the sight of the water last self control and threw myself in the stream and drank dirty water.. I think one was meant to go back to drinking after 3 days but I kind of pushed the whole thing further due to my thought creates reality thinking and I just wanted to know if I could master it. I was attempting to go breatharian and doing Jasmueen's initiation.

It was on day 3 I had my very strange experience but after that happened I had nothing else happen at all though I got close to death I think after the week of no food or water (the night of day 3 that's the day before the last night where you call for beings to help change your body..the actual initiation part, so my strange experience was on the day before that) and as I said 40 day food fasts do not bring on any strange experiences to me it was only on that time when i having no fluid too. Every couple of years Ive been doing a 40 day or more fast.

My experience was after the no food and water fasting at day 3 .. I had a hot bath and on getting out of the bath I got a massive head spin and collapsed onto the bathroom floor and could not stand back up. At that point a voice spoke to me as a command "stand child".. and I got actually picked up off the floor by a force and stood back on my feet (I didn't like get up at all, I was picked up by the force) and was strong then standing when that was done. After that for the rest of the fast (8-9 days of no food or water, 6-7 weeks no food).. I was clear headed and had no other experiences, I didnt even get close to feeling like I was going to faint (it was summer at the time too here in Australia, I went out and just did my normal daily stuff doing that time)

Anyway from this for me.. fasting I can say really doesn't do anything for me (other than 40 day fasting helping me cause I had a lot of food problems at the time with food intolerances, I felt better on that fast than normal). I've had many big spiritual experiences when not fasting at all so I wont count that voice and being stood up (though I must admit that its the only time Ive had a force stand me up). You DO NOT need to fast for experiences.. just meditate or do spiritual and energy work and in my experience I'm less likely to have spiritual experiences when fasting then if I'm just meditating.