Any Science or Religion without Truth is both lame AND blind.

[Altair]

''This has to include spiritual principles''

You sure? Two examples...

For thousands of years people thought those with epilepsy and mental health issues were possessed by nasty demons. Then modern science began to understand that there are physiological explanations. Second, for thousands of years people believed in creationism, and that all plants and animals were fixed and there at the start. We now know from studies into genetics and fossils that this is not the case, not to mention it would be ecologically impossible.

Science basically doesn't need religion.
When you say they both need Truth what do you mean??

[7luminaries]

There is pure knowledge and there is applied knowledge. Applied knowledge (which I argue is actually 99+% of all knowledge in this multiverse that we or other sentients will ever acquire) requires many constructs, choices, and focii to even begin to gather the info and make sense of it. Meaning a core local construct of consciousness, of culture, and of one or more value systems are always present...whether implicit or explicit. And the explicit is far, far better...because then it can be examined rigorously and held to account. This is true for hard science, social science, and for all disciplines -- whether considered as science or art (philosophy, ethics, politics, governance, etc.).

Ultimately, for all knowledge we uncover or reveal, there is a foundational set of principles upon which any action or idea is performed or comes into being or is raised up and supported. Part of being human is contributing to and defining these foundational principles. Are they amoral and utilitarian (might makes right, ends justify means)? Or are they humanitarian and Gaian in the most fundamental of ways (many of which are as yet unrealised or unarticulated)? What will we do with our knowledge? What will we study and how will we apply our knowledge further? And why? To what end(s) and in support of what values and outcomes?

Amoral utilitarianism will never lead us in the same direction as humanitarianism. We must make choices with regard to our fundamental principles. These fundamental principles ultimately have a spiritual source -- that is they are timeless and unbounded even whilst they can be manifest in the material realm. Meaning, their manifestation in the material is realised only by the honing of our consciousness, both individually and societally or globally.

Peace & blessings
7L

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by guthrio

Reference: http://www.thechristmind.org/the-law.htm

Good link. This is also similar to Advait (Non-dualism) concept in Hinduism .

[guthrio]

Originally Posted by Altair

''This has to include spiritual principles''

You sure? Two examples...

For thousands of years people thought those with epilepsy and mental health issues were possessed by nasty demons. Then modern science began to understand that there are physiological explanations. Second, for thousands of years people believed in creationism, and that all plants and animals were fixed and there at the start. We now know from studies into genetics and fossils that this is not the case, not to mention it would be ecologically impossible.

Science basically doesn't need religion.
When you say they both need Truth what do you mean??

Altair,

Excellent points you've raised, which support my contention that the answers to problems in science and religion come from correcting the perspective which generates its appearance as a problem (TRUTH). To answer your specific question above, I invite you to see what I stated to another SF poster who asked a similar question:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...8&postcount=22

No matter how well stated, 2 +2= 5 will always generate a problem in perspective (error) until the perspective, itself, is corrected to reveal that 2 + 2 = 4, even before the equation is computed.....

"Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things." http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...44&postcount=1

Altair, these perspectives changed my life.

Hope they can help you, too.

[guthrio]

Please excuse this deleted post as a duplicate of the one above it. Mea culpa.

Originally Posted by guthrio

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"

But any Science or Religion without Truth is both lame AND blind.

Primarily the difference between religion and science is the method of inquiry for the Truth...

THAT'S what true science or religion is....

Well Johnathan, that was an impressive show of aviation skills. You are clearly a skilled and advanced flyer. Much of what you said I could not have said better myself, although I may have said it more softly and with less certainty.

"You didn't need faith to fly, you needed to understand flying." -Richard Bach

I think I disagree with Mr. Bach here. Faith may not help one master the principles of flight, but I think it takes a great deal of faith to pull oneself up from the surface of the ocean after they have crash landed and find the strength to get up and try again. Faith may not be truth, yet it is a nutrient necessary to sustain one on the journey to find it. Especially since truth can be such an elusive questing beast to corner. Just when one thinks they have truth within their grasp, upon closer examination it turns out to be an illusion that simply alludes to deeper truths hidden within, and the quest continues for as long as the knight has faith that the Grail exists, can be found, grapsed, and possessed. One wonders if the knight would understand that whether or not the Grail can ever be found is perhapse not as important as the quest itself, “it is the emptiness inside that makes the vessel useful.”

“Don’t believe what your eyes are telling you. All they show is limitation. Look with your understanding. Find out what you already know and you will see the way to fly.”
― Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull
“What the caterpillar calls the end of the world the master calls a butterfly.”
Richard Bach

Anyway; as I read your rather lengthy but well written post, I can’t help but think of another Bach quote.
“Jonathan sighed. The price of being misunderstood, he thought. They call you devil or they call you god.” ― Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

I wish you good luck on your quest to find truth. If you find yourself tilting at a windmill now and then, don’t lose faith, it is a funny sort of landscape we travel through. If you find a lance stuck in there already, it is probably mine.

https://www.livescience.com/objectiv...hysicists.html

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

''This has to include spiritual principles''

You sure? Two examples...

For thousands of years people thought those with epilepsy and mental health issues were possessed by nasty demons. Then modern science began to understand that there are physiological explanations. Second, for thousands of years people believed in creationism, and that all plants and animals were fixed and there at the start. We now know from studies into genetics and fossils that this is not the case, not to mention it would be ecologically impossible.

Science basically doesn't need religion.
When you say they both need Truth what do you mean??

But science only sees part of the picture.

For thousands of years people thought those with epilepsy and mental health issues were possessed by nasty demons. Then modern science began to understand that there are physiological explanations.

Science looks for the causes of epilepsy and mental health issues in the physical body and finds that there may be certain imbalances which relate to these problems. The philosophy of Yoga considers the human being quite differently, so epilepsy and mental health issues may have their origins in the etheric or mental bodies of a human being.

Second, for thousands of years people believed in creationism, and that all plants and animals were fixed and there at the start. We now know from studies into genetics and fossils that this is not the case, not to mention it would be ecologically impossible.

Some people (notably Christians) may have believed this, but other spiritual philosophies put forward a very different picture to explain the evolution of forms over millions of years.

Scientific materialism tries to explain everything from a purely physical perspective, and such explanations are inadequate. Eventually science will incorporate spiritual principles into its explanations and then it will come much nearer the truth.

Peace

[guthrio]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Well Johnathan, that was an impressive show of aviation skills. You are clearly a skilled and advanced flyer. Much of what you said I could not have said better myself, although I may have said it more softly and with less certainty.

"You didn't need faith to fly, you needed to understand flying." -Richard Bach

I think I disagree with Mr. Bach here. Faith may not help one master the principles of flight, but I think it takes a great deal of faith to pull oneself up from the surface of the ocean after they have crash landed and find the strength to get up and try again. Faith may not be truth, yet it is a nutrient necessary to sustain one on the journey to find it. Especially since truth can be such an elusive questing beast to corner. Just when one thinks they have truth within their grasp, upon closer examination it turns out to be an illusion that simply alludes to deeper truths hidden within, and the quest continues for as long as the knight has faith that the Grail exists, can be found, grapsed, and possessed. One wonders if the knight would understand that whether or not the Grail can ever be found is perhapse not as important as the quest itself, “it is the emptiness inside that makes the vessel useful.”

“Don’t believe what your eyes are telling you. All they show is limitation. Look with your understanding. Find out what you already know and you will see the way to fly.”
― Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull
“What the caterpillar calls the end of the world the master calls a butterfly.”
Richard Bach

Anyway; as I read your rather lengthy but well written post, I can’t help but think of another Bach quote.
“Jonathan sighed. The price of being misunderstood, he thought. They call you devil or they call you god.” ― Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

I wish you good luck on your quest to find truth. If you find yourself tilting at a windmill now and then, don’t lose faith, it is a funny sort of landscape we travel through. If you find a lance stuck in there already, it is probably mine.

https://www.livescience.com/objectiv...hysicists.html

Ketzer,

Thanks for your reply, and the excellent article...

Neither Don's nor Jonathan's "quests" are quixotic...

....nor, for that matter, is that of any quantum physicist.

The quest for Truth is why we are each here. Some find It sooner than others, but we do find it....because it is the only Truth there is to find.

...whether the lance is prematurely surrendered or not.

The "pearl of great price" has always been the Truth as understood by one's own self, by one's own efforts to find it, not misunderstood by someone else's "God" or "Devil" label of their own quest.

As mentioned in my post to Altair's also excellent questions in this thread, THAT'S HOW you personally experience the immutable Truth of YOURSELF..... by direct experience OF IT. Then YOU KNOW the Truth, not merely believe "in" the Truth or have "faith" in the Truth, or have to be told "about" the Truth second-handedly.

As to "Clearly these are all deeply philosophical questions about the fundamental nature of reality. Whatever the answer, an interesting future awaits."

....the future, and the Truth, is now.

Originally Posted by iamthat

But science only sees part of the picture.

For thousands of years people thought those with epilepsy and mental health issues were possessed by nasty demons. Then modern science began to understand that there are physiological explanations.

Science looks for the causes of epilepsy and mental health issues in the physical body and finds that there may be certain imbalances which relate to these problems. The philosophy of Yoga considers the human being quite differently, so epilepsy and mental health issues may have their origins in the etheric or mental bodies of a human being.

Second, for thousands of years people believed in creationism, and that all plants and animals were fixed and there at the start. We now know from studies into genetics and fossils that this is not the case, not to mention it would be ecologically impossible.

Some people (notably Christians) may have believed this, but other spiritual philosophies put forward a very different picture to explain the evolution of forms over millions of years.

Scientific materialism tries to explain everything from a purely physical perspective, and such explanations are inadequate. Eventually science will incorporate spiritual principles into its explanations and then it will come much nearer the truth.

Peace

This dude iamthat is just a breath of fresh air wherever he goes!

Stop it, iamthat!!

Jl

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by janielee

This dude iamthat is just a breath of fresh air wherever he goes!

Stop it, iamthat!!

Jl

Aw, thanks!

Peace