karma

Originally Posted by Glorymist

dreamer / mart - -

I misssed the reference to you being the same person. I hope you will stay under the name of "dreamer" when addressing me - - because you seem a bit more "enlightened" when under that name.

You - - dreamer - - have put forth one of the best and more profound statements I have seen on this forum. It was - - "It seems that the strangeness of the truth is not too palatable."

THAT - - my dear Mr. dreamer - - is VERY true indeed. And it is also why people push knowledge away and prefer to stay trapped where they are. They work for countless lifetimes to attain the upper mental worlds where they can finally train the mind to be quiet for a few moments - - then believe they have reached some kind of "enlightened" state because they can simply stop thought for a while - - and then they will just continue under that state of consciousness for-EV-er ! ! Almost - - literally.

It takes effort - - dreamer - - to work passed all of this. Effort that very few people want to even consider - - let alone actually do. It's easier to just believe in "no-thing" - - and let it go at that.

And yes - - all of this IS - - part of the Path ! !

:->

Hey Glory,

I'm not sure that anyone is believing in nothing, just that this is what is. To enjoy and get the most out of what is it is necessary to make effort in letting go of all that stops you getting the most out of it. If this makes sense. The only thing that one can be certain of is how one feels - might as well enjoy the trip, and yes it takes effort and skill to master the art of wu wei wu, even the void is something.

Hi Petey, I would say that karma is the attraction of matching energy to whatever energy you are at any point in time, in this sense I think Glory is right to say that karma is constantly being created although maybe created is a clumsy word semantically. If you look in a mirror you are always creating your reflection - put it that way maybe.

Glory i will use the dreamer alias if that works best for you, its all to do with labelling i suppose - this difference/seperation.

dreamer - -

I am well aware of attitude - - and it's purpose and importance.

There is NO aspect of Truth that accepts denial as an approach / understanding of any of IT's other aspects. In other words - - many people can duck behind the "nothing" bit so they do not have to understand it. They can even deny that there has to be any deeper understanding to much of anything on any level - - physical / emotional / mental / or otherwise - - beyond "nothing."

That - - works for a while. Whoever lives from that viewpoint can enjoy the ride for as long as it works for him / her.

And the Void is there for a reason. Actually - - there are a number of them. But the "biggie" is just above the Etheric Plane. That one - - no one gets thru without certain interactions taking place first.

Oh yes - - out of the many, many, many that have gotten thru this Void - - if there was ONE individual that made it thru with the above "interactions" taking place - - then my statement is false. Suffice to say - - 99.99999% of those that try - - will not make it thru.

Not necessarily because it is that tough to do. Primarily because - - that's the way "it" is all set up. Again - - there is a *reason* for the Void.

And Bob23 - -

Geez - - I hate to do this - - because we tend to just jump on a merry-go-round and end up nowhere when I try to enter into such discussions - - but - -

A good definition of the Meaning of Life - - or the Purpose of the Path - - or however you wish to term it - - if you even do - - is - -

All of this is set up to assist Soul to discover who and what It is and what It's responsibilities are to LIFE IT-self. How It is responsible. To what extent. When. Etc.

My point being - - no matter your attempt at an explanation - - when you say - - "there is no sense of personal doer-ship" - - accepting this would certainly let anyone off the hook for most anything. On any level. Soul would not have to understand responsibility other than learning what "not" to do - - because It certainly wouldn't need to learn what TO do - - since there would be no personal doer-ship.

So - - do you perceive taking responsibility for one's actions as being important at all ?? Or does the individual simply not need to take responsibility for what happens in his / her / their life since there is no "doer-ship" involved ??

I totally agree with the "not seeking" part - - tho this is often misunderstood. But if there is no "doer-ship" - - who is responsibility for what happens in our individual lives ?? Or are we just a ping-pong ball that bounces off "stuff that happens" to us ??

IN other words - - please try a bit harder to clarify your thinking / beliefs on this. I would appreciate it. It IS intriguing ! !

Originally Posted by Glorymist

Geez - - I hate to do this - - because we tend to just jump on a merry-go-round and end up nowhere when I try to enter into such discussions - - but - -

Hey Glorymist,

If there is hate for doing something because of the merry~go~round ending up nowhere (now here), then there is simply hate and a merry~go~round whilst still perpetuating it, hence the 'but'!

If the body~mind~organism called Glorymist still believes they do the things that they do, then, that is what will be happening to Glorymist.

If the believed entity 'Glorymist' seeks clarification through words on a screen, then, an attempt will be made, through the intellect, to put that which can't be intellectualized into words.

Now there's intrique for you!

Originally Posted by Glorymist

dreamer - -

I am well aware of attitude - - and it's purpose and importance.

There is NO aspect of Truth that accepts denial as an approach / understanding of any of IT's other aspects. In other words - - many people can duck behind the "nothing" bit so they do not have to understand it. They can even deny that there has to be any deeper understanding to much of anything on any level - - physical / emotional / mental / or otherwise - - beyond "nothing."

That - - works for a while. Whoever lives from that viewpoint can enjoy the ride for as long as it works for him / her.

And the Void is there for a reason. Actually - - there are a number of them. But the "biggie" is just above the Etheric Plane. That one - - no one gets thru without certain interactions taking place first.

Oh yes - - out of the many, many, many that have gotten thru this Void - - if there was ONE individual that made it thru with the above "interactions" taking place - - then my statement is false. Suffice to say - - 99.99999% of those that try - - will not make it thru.

Not necessarily because it is that tough to do. Primarily because - - that's the way "it" is all set up. Again - - there is a *reason* for the Void.

Hey Glorymist,

I would be interested if you wanted to share some experiences and knowledge with us all?

Would you say there is no aspect of truth that accepts denial as an approach because everything is the truthi.e. truth is what is/how could it not be so? as bob says.

YaY ! ! Mr. Bob23 - -

Thanks for pushing the button on the merry-go-round.

Please substitute any word you wish for the word "hate" - - and I will admit it was just a phrase I used at the time and I sincerely apologize for using a word that was left open to interpretation in a literal context that would allow you to take the dancestep routine you chose to take - - but this very reply of yours shows I was not wrong in my hesitation.

Once passed the above substitution which you choose - - (just use one that suggests caution / hesitancy / doubt that you will reply with clarity / etc. - - and again - - your reply shows exactly why) - - please just get on with the offering of info without the fancy sidesteps or word bouquets.

Please ??

Once again - - I just asked for clarification of your terms and the basic beliefs behind their use. I ask first. Always nice to ask for clarification before casting aspersions of any kind. Or sidesteps. After all - - you may find that your last reply was unnecessary if you would just answer the inquiry. Are you above / beyond simply answering a question ??

Geez Bob - - I'm just asking ! ! Ease up a bit, huh ?? Not because you're angry or anything. I'm not taking it that way. But how about - - looking for reasons to answer a question rather than looking for ways not to.

Just be nice. You might find you like it.

:->

And dreamer - -

You've GOT to be kidding me ! !

People have a tough time coming to terms with even the rudimentary basics from a mental point of view. I have been reading some of the links I run across in some of these forums - - offering the present info on duality and intention and such - - and the current metaphysical systems are SO blurring the concept that it will take eons to straighten it out ! ! They've got the basic concepts so twisted out of shape but they smooth on the frosting and make it sound SOOO nice that everyone just laps it up like a kitten with a bowl of cream.

In the last day or two - - as I have looked at a couple of these links - - it has become more and more clear to me why I have been having trouble understanding why there is so much misunderstanding on these forums. My gosh - - everyone uses words like "duality" and "non-duality" and "intent" and such in SUCH a different way than the principle is based upon. I was / am astounded.

But - - it didn't take much effort to realize that this is exactly what the mind would do to such concepts. Dig and dig and dig into them - - over-analyze them - - tweak the definition a little here and there and come up with something "new" - - and everyone's off and running with partial truths and misunderstanding. Such is the Path.

So - - no. I am not going to get into personal revelations here. All it would lead to would be intense intellectual debate - - which I do not really enjoy. Mind is mind. There is a time and place for it. But a lot of this is up to the individual to sort out - - to be able to tell the difference between relative truth and falsehood - - which is being sold to the masses at an unprecendented rate thru the ease of disemination of info thru the internet. Times were when just one person could be totally errant in his / her thinking and really not do that much harm to the overall consciousness of mankind. Now - - s/he can spread his / her misunderstandings all over the world in a matter of moments - - and if that person can be a good writer and pen their thoughts in flowery circular word bouquets that offer nothing but a mental thrill - - then people fall on their knees in worship. ( Being a bit dramatic here. HeH )

People put opposites next to each other, throw in a few references to "intention" and "now" and "nothing" - - and everyone just goes "ooOOoo ! !"

And no ! ! This is in NO specific reference to anyone in this forum. I jump around between 4-5-6 forums. They are basically all the same. They all end up in mental sparrings. VERY few know anything beyond that. The only interesting difference is in the way each individual dances away from answering revealing questions that show depth of thought and a more broad understanding of LIFE.

PM's are another matter. I can be very open in PM's. It always depends on the individual. And how open, honest, and sincere they are.

Originally Posted by Glorymist

but this very reply of yours shows I was not wrong in my hesitation.

Hey Glorymist,

Ofcourse you weren't wrong, it was just a phrase...what's found interesting here is; the process or collection of phrases as they're chosen by the individual 'Glorymist' to perpetuate the idea that goes round and round the garden.

My replies are done to the best of my ability to reply, that's all. If, as you see it, you think there's something to avoid or sidestep then that's something you'll no doubt point out in your posts.

Let me put it another way; I have no foundation or understanding or beliefs that can be put into words which will appeal to the intellect other than appearing as a sidestep to that particular intellect!

All we have here is a load of word salad or mind candy which is very appealing and enjoyable for the 'chatterer' to chew on...which is great, y'know. But, IMHO, the clarity the intellectual words are seeking to 'understand', seem to be anywhere BUT on a page on a computer screen.

Another way of looking at it might be to say; the intellect or understanding, whilst being very useful for making tea or processing words on a screen, cannot contain the unlimited within it's limited chatter.

There seems to be far more room around the computer screen in the actuality than contained within these very limited symbols here we call words.

And that is my best representation of something which is not a thing as such, hence the usage of the symbol/pointer/word no~thing.

Ofcourse, more words will result, that's inevitable, but for Bob23 the words aren't used as a fishing hook to 'get' something intellectually, they are simply used as a celebration of the limitation they are.

Words on a screen over here on the PC can only be seen from the very absence of themselves, again and hence the word no~thing by used by this body~mind~organism.

No~thing but, in that, it's everything!

Nice dancing with ya,

Originally Posted by Glorymist

And no ! ! This is in NO specific reference to anyone in this forum. I jump around between 4-5-6 forums. They are basically all the same. They all end up in mental sparrings. VERY few know anything beyond that. The only interesting difference is in the way each individual dances away from answering revealing questions that show depth of thought and a more broad understanding of LIFE.

PM's are another matter. I can be very open in PM's. It always depends on the individual. And how open, honest, and sincere they are.

Hi Glorymist,

I would genuinely be interested to find out more from you, you speak with conviction and consistency about certain topics and that is always a good sign in terms of learning something new I find. Would it be okay to PM you?

I'm not one for mental sparring despite what it may seem, more keen to improve the quality of the experience.

Bob23 - -

The only reason I need to point out various repeated questions is because you refuse to answer them in the first place.

I acknowledge that you have picked up / are using a few new concepts to allow you to not have to answer my first inquiry. You are good at that.

What I have asked - - is FAR from the unlimited. You could easily clarify the initial question if you truly were based firmly in the principle involved. Being able to express such concepts mentally / intellectually is a level of communication and interaction that few can really claim to be "beyond." One can always do their best to express the inexpressable no matter what the principle. If it falls short - - so be it. But many who use this ploy are simply using it so they do not have to figure it out to the extent that they themselves actually understand it - - let alone be able to discuss / clarify it.

You can claim that it is intellect to intellect - - or other such tactics - - but once again - - it is just your way of not clarifying your viewpoints on LIFE. If you cannot clarify - - on a computer screen or otherwise - - then you enjoy that vague, nebulous "I don't know what I think / feel but I feel something and it's beyond words" bit. Gee - - is this a new one to mankind ?? Is this a new one to any seeker ??

People duck behind this "no-thing" bit to keep from understanding where they are and what Life is all about. I ran across a link in another forum on "consciousness" - - a rather long and rambling exposition that began to twirl words like "duality" and "non-duality" and "no-thing" and "intent" and such - - and the explanations they offered brought all the concepts into the mental worlds and just allowed the person who followed / believed as this guy portrayed to get away with the "DUH ! !" outlook - - and just not worry about having to understand it. In other words - - "it's all no-thing so why bother to explain ?? " He actually brought non-duality into the area of MEST - - which is astounding ! ! But as I told dreamer in my last post - - this just shows the workings of today's metaphysicians and mentalists to bring all concepts beyond the mind down into the mental worlds so that mind can accept even non-duality / etc. as part of itself. A beautiful ploy by the mind. Probably not intentional by any of the people to mislead - - but still - - these "new" outlooks are being promoted and now we have what we have.

Which is - - "Gee, what I believe is beyond the mind so why even try to explain."

Beautiful ! !

Mind wins ! !

You can use "limited symbols" and "representations" and "fishing hooks" and any evasive tactic you wish. The point remains - - what I asked initially - - which is - - if you have forgotten - - what you mean by "personal doer-ship" and your viewpoint on the responsibility of the individual (on any level you wish to consider it) to LIFE IT-self - - these concepts do NOT lie within the unlimited.

These questions are NOT - - repeat NOT - - within the "unlimited."

Body-mind-organism can NOT understand nor live from the true principle of "Nothing." It can make believe that it can - - and hence lead to what you promote - - but - - it is a mental con.

Now - - you can believe I am just rambling. You can believe I am just coming from the "intellect." You can believe almost anything you wish. But the point remains - - I would NOT say such a thing unless I knew in reality - - including that which is beyond the mental worlds - - that it is a truth as far as it goes. If I were making guesses as to it all - - I would say that. If it were opinion - - I would say that too.

Now - - that being said - - there are people who would read the above and say - - "Hmmm. Maybe this person can help me understand a bit more about myself and what the so-called Path is all about." And there are others - - the majority - - that will say - - "This is all word salads / intellectual bubblegum / etc. Why bother ?? "

The first approach is a springboard - - towards a more broad understanding of Life. That latter - - throws another lay of bricks on the mental fortress.

"Words on a screen over here on a PC can only be seen from the very absence of themselves" - - is pure ** ! ! If your viewpoint in all of this is to find a way to not have to be able to express your beliefs to yourself - - let alone to anyone else - - then you have found that viewpoint. Tho true experience within the worlds beyond duality is indeed inexpressable - - to discuss them a bit and to offer broad and sweeping testimony to the best of one's ability is and has been possible. To say that it cannot - - is a pure cop-out. Especially when all I am trying to get clarification from you is about what "personal doer-ship" is, what one's responsibility to LIFE is all about, and who is responsible for what happens in each individual's life.

To understand that and to be able to express that is NOT within the unlimited. You may want it to be - - but it is not. And you can only guess why I know that.