To come to validly know for oneself

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Through the practices duh... Isn't that what Buddhism is all about.

Arguing that one finds it through logic is not Buddhism.

Here is another meaning of a Island unto oneself...



Here it is going even deeper than what I was describing and saying it is referring to ones innate Buddha Nature.

Also, what is Direct Perception to you?

you obviously cannot recognize what stupid believer you are.

you are so blinded that you cannot distinguish valid knowledge from belief.

have you ever read the template for validly knowing for oneself that I have provided? Certainly not since you are completely off topic all the time.

Are you fighting against reason, or what?

[Ground]

jonesboy, why don't you provide syllogisms that support your assertions?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

you obviously cannot recognize what stupid believer you are.

you are so blinded that you cannot distinguish valid knowledge from belief.

have you ever read the template for validly knowing for oneself that I have provided? Certainly not since you are completely off topic all the time.

Are you fighting against reason, or what?

Hi Ground,

I know what I experience, what my state of being is. I know that I can help others experience silence, energy, bliss amoung other things.

It is not a belief but a fact that goes right along with the sutras.

This sums up your system you are trying to push.

For Dharmakīrti, scripture (Buddhist or otherwise) is not a genuine and independent mean of valid cognition. He held that one should not use scripture to guide one on matters which can be decided by factual and rational means and that one is not to be faulted for rejecting unreasonable parts of the scriptures of one's school. However scripture is to be relied upon when dealing with "radically inaccessible things", such as the laws of karma and soteriology. However according to Dharmakīrti scripture is a fallible source of knowledge and has no claim to certainty.[1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmakirti

What is really funny again is that Dharmakirti was a Two Truth guy which you are very much against.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Hi Ground,

I know what I experience, what my state of being is. I know that I can help others experience silence, energy, bliss amoung other things.

It is not a belief but a fact that goes right along with the sutras.

It is a belief because if it were vald knowledge you should be able to express it by means of valid syllogisms.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

This sums up your system you are trying to push

Not at all. But this sums up your system of mere belief that you are trying to push.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What is really funny again is that Dharmakirti was a Two Truth guy which you are very much against.

you obviously are not knowledgable of the philosophical systems. There are diverse systems of 'two truths'. But the logic of Dharmarkirti is independent of any of the two truth systems. Why? because it is based on direct perception and valid inference which are not negated by any kind of ultimate truth.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

It is a belief because if it were vald knowledge you should be able to express it by means of valid syllogisms.

I have within this section many times. To understand Rigpa please reference the Dzogchen Practice of Contemplation. Notice the title of the book say's practice :) Which you say Dzogchen doesn't have any of... :)

Not just offered in words but for others to experience... Just sounds like ego and doing anymore syllogisms is a waste of time with you. As the other texts I have provided, showing you taking things out of context.. has done little to deter you.

But you will notice that most of my responses reference sutras and teachings with a link... So it is pretty common for me to do so.

Not at all. But this sums up your system of mere belief that you are trying to push

.

Are you just repeating what I am saying? Are you just repeating what I am saying?

you obviously are not knowledgable of the philosophical systems. There are diverse systems of 'two truths'. But the logic of Dharmarkirti is independent of any of the two truth systems. Why? because it is based on direct perception and valid inference which are not negated by any kind of ultimate truth.

Can you show me in Buddhism the DIVERSE SYSTEMS of "Two Truth" please?

A hint it is a reference to a Doctrine, not multiple systems.. but looking forward to you proving your statement.

[django]

From the notes to Attadiipaa Sutta: An Island to Oneself

"It is necessary to withdraw, to be "an island unto oneself," at least for a time, not for any "selfish" reasons but precisely in order to make this profound introspective investigation."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....043.wlsh.html

If this profound introspective investigation is undertaken, we will find the Buddha Dharma within, I think this is possible for the truly dedicated. If we are not capable of profound introspective investigation, someone else's version of Dharma might be appropriate.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

From the notes to Attadiipaa Sutta: An Island to Oneself

"It is necessary to withdraw, to be "an island unto oneself," at least for a time, not for any "selfish" reasons but precisely in order to make this profound introspective investigation."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....043.wlsh.html

If this profound introspective investigation is undertaken, we will find the Buddha Dharma within, I think this is possible for the truly dedicated. If we are not capable of profound introspective investigation, someone else's version of Dharma might be appropriate.

The above sounds like it is saying it is ok to go to retreats, to focus on your practices.

So, do the practices to see for yourself.

How do you learn the practices? A teacher is how you really learn Buddhism.

It is a call to do the practices and you will see what the Buddha teaches as true.

If it wasn't found so Buddhism wouldn't last long now would it?

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The above sounds like it is saying it is ok to go to retreats, to focus on your practices.

So, do the practices to see for yourself.

How do you learn the practices? A teacher is how you really learn Buddhism.

It is a call to do the practices and you will see what the Buddha teaches as true.

If it wasn't found so Buddhism wouldn't last long now would it?

BTW I really enjoyed reading your quote on the previous page about the lamp or island, thankyou for posting it. But from that page there is this:

"Be an island unto yourself! Strive quickly; be wise!
Without impurities and clear, you will never again come to birth and aging."

Dhammapāda (238) of the Pali canon
http://www.buddha-dharma.eu/lamp-or-island.html

Objectively speaking, isn't this saying don't listen to anyone else and keep your own counsel? What else could "Be an island unto yourself" possibly mean?

Do you know what practices are suggested in the Pali canon to remove impurities and become clear?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

BTW I really enjoyed reading your quote on the previous page about the lamp or island, thankyou for posting it. But from that page there is this:

"Be an island unto yourself! Strive quickly; be wise!
Without impurities and clear, you will never again come to birth and aging."

Dhammapāda (238) of the Pali canon
http://www.buddha-dharma.eu/lamp-or-island.html

Objectively speaking, isn't this saying don't listen to anyone else and keep your own counsel? What else could "Be an island unto yourself" possibly mean?

I posted this earlier...

Taking refuge is something Buddhists do in Buddha, his Teachings, and the Community.
There are nevertheless a few instances where Buddha advised his audience to seek refuge in themselves. Unfortunately this is at times interpreted as an invitation to reach an undesirable state of mind i.e. egoïsm, or self-centredness and so on.

Much investigation has therefore been done in finding out what in matter of fact Buddha says when he says "Be a lamp unto yourself" (old rendering), or "Be an island unto yourself" (new rendering).

We find this exhortation in a number of texts throughout the Small Vehicle canons of the Theravādin (the Pali canon), the Chinese (the Āgama), and the Tibetan (the Kanyur).

The best known instance is that of the Dhammapāda (238) of the Pali canon where it says:
Be an island unto yourself! Strive quickly; be wise!
Without impurities and clear, you will never again come to birth and aging. (Tr. Pali-class NTU). In Pali:
"so karohi dipam attano khippaj vayama pandito bhava niddhantamalo anavgano na punaj jatijaraj upehisi" (without the nessecary diacretic marks).

We find a slightly different rendering in the Pali Mahāparinibbāna Sutta where it says:
"Therefore, Ānanda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. (Tr. vipassana.com)
Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaranā anaññasaranā, dhammadīpā dhammasaranā anaññasaranā.

In years gone by the Pali word dīpa used to be rendered as "lamp" following such passages as "extinguish the lamp of disease (ignorance)!" (telappadīpo āropito.) which we equallly find in the above Pali Mahāparinibbāna Sutta. Walpola Rahula, in his 'What the Buddha taught' points to this discussion.

Since then translations have been made of the possibly oldest text-layers of the Pali Sutta Nipāta, more specifically book V, the teaching to Kappa (PTS F199 : 1092-1095) where Buddha says:
"There is an island, an island which you cannot go beyond. It is a place of nothingness(*), a place of non-possession and of non-attachment. It is the total end of death and decay, and this is why I call it nibbāna." (tr.H. Saddhatissa)
oghe jāte mahabbhaye
jarāmaccuparetānam dīpam pabrūmi Kappa te
akiñcanam anādānam etam dīpam anāparam,
nibbānam iti nam brūmi, jarāmaccuparikkhayam.

(*) (The 4th meditative state of jhāna/dhyana where there is no experience at all.)

Saddhatissa translated the Sutta Nipāta in the year 1994. Since that day we not only know how to translate the word dīpa, especially when it stands in conjunction with 'refuge' (saraná), but at the same time we know the full meaning of Buddha's words. He did not say: retire into yourself because solitude in itself is best, or, no-one else can be trusted, or, there you find the safest place.

Since according to the given Sutta Nipāta-fragment Buddha speaks with Kappa, a disciple of the revered Vedic priest Bāvari, we understand that Buddha used Kappa's religious parlance, but gave it his own interpretation. Talk of 'islands' must have been on the religious-philosophical menu of the day. We find a remnant of it in the Mahāyāna Lankāvatāra Sutra where "the other island" is given as the dwelling-place of a Vishnu-avatar. There it is presented as a vedic or hinduïstic concept.

The island (dīpa) in Buddha's words is no longer the dwelling-place of a godhead, it rather is identical with Enlightenment, nibbāna (nirvāna in Sanskrit), the safe ground, or terra firma as Amazonia-specialists say today. It is "the dhamma" (teaching), the fourth jhānic meditation to be found within our own mind-body-complex, hence the words "Be an island unto yourself."

http://www.buddha-dharma.eu/lamp-or-island.html

Do you know what practices are suggested in the Pali canon to remove impurities and become clear?

I am not a Buddhist and have not look at all of the different practices but I am sure they involve meditation.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I am not a Buddhist ....

Now isn't that hilarious?

This guy who is arguing against authentic buddhist texts openly declares that he isn't a buddhist. The same guy that mixes buddhist ideas with hindu religion and calls persons 'teachers' that are not trustworthy as to buddha dharma admits to not be a buddhist and wants to tell others what buddhism is and what it isn't

This guy is desparately struggling against the budda's advice to apply rational analysis to come to know for oneself because if rational analysis would be applied his own fabrications of belief would be smashed to dust.

"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....043.wlsh.html