Antisocial people hidding behind their mask of sanity

[Clover]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

^^ I suppose the links were taken out because barrack-room psychology can be dangerous especially to the vulnerable. They can jump to all kinds of erroneous conclusions. It can worsen their situation. I'm no fan of psychology but even arriving at DSM diagnoses usually entails history taking. which in turn needs specialised questions and a completely impartial report of the answers for analysis.

It's difficult otherwise unless one is mentally stable. Perhaps it was thought that, given the vulnerability of a few members here, it might be better to avoid the material.

I know about abuse but as I was able to insulate myself from it (spiritually) to some extent so got back on an even keel fairly quickly. I mentioned elsewhere I think, that that was the basis of my spiritual interests. Others have not been so lucky. But one way it's affected me is that even a whiff of controlling or overbearing from a guy and he's shown the door. Prevention being better than cure in a relationship, I think.

The link was removed because the original poster is a new member and does not have the full forum accessibility to post links yet. Also, for security purposes, we never know what random links entail. That's all. Keep it friendly, folks.

Cloves

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

^^ I suppose the links were taken out because barrack-room psychology can be dangerous especially to the vulnerable. They can jump to all kinds of erroneous conclusions. It can worsen their situation. I'm no fan of psychology but even arriving at DSM diagnoses usually entails history taking. which in turn needs specialised questions and a completely impartial report of the answers for analysis.

It's difficult otherwise unless one is mentally stable. Perhaps it was thought that, given the vulnerability of a few members here, it might be better to avoid the material.

I know about abuse but as I was able to insulate myself from it (spiritually) to some extent so got back on an even keel fairly quickly. I mentioned elsewhere I think, that that was the basis of my spiritual interests. Others have not been so lucky. But one way it's affected me is that even a whiff of controlling or overbearing from a guy and he's shown the door. Prevention being better than cure in a relationship, I think.

It's after reading these kinds of articles my friend intellectually realised there was something wrong with the girl he was friend with. He sometimes felt strange and uncomfortable about her but also she was very charming, funny and was talented at faking being nice and fragile, that why he always tried to understand her and ask if it was him that was the source of the problem. I'm sure my friend is a empath because as an empath myself i can tell with the people i know well if they're empaths.

He then wrote to specialists and they told him the girl was a psychopath or a narcissist with sociopathic traits and told him to go entirely go no contact because even if the abuse and manipulation were covert, they were real, intentional and could be quite dangerous. There was a wonderful energy healer i knew and i presented her to my friend, it took some work to clean the quite strong effects of the abuse.

Originally Posted by arnicamontana

He then wrote to specialists and they told him the girl was a psychopath or a narcissist with sociopathic traits and told him to go entirely go no contact because even if the abuse and manipulation were covert, they were real, intentional and could be quite dangerous. There was a wonderful energy healer i knew and i presented her to my friend, it took some work to clean the quite strong effects of the abuse.

Surprising - the lack of professionalism. Unless the specialists have personally interviewed the girl they'd be working on a second-hand anecdotal report. I can understand it happening if money changes hands - this sort of thing happens - but it seems unlikely that professionals would do that.

But I meant in general terms about psychology on line. To me it parallels buying prescription only medicine online. You really don't know what you're buying.
People have problems. Often they can't even frame them in a solvable way and it's all too easy to jump to wrong conclusions. Vulnerable people are indeed vulnerable to massage their problems to fit the solution they find, one of the ways their problems might be worsened.

Just a general observation is all. My suspicion of psychology is limitless!!

...

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Surprising - the lack of professionalism. Unless the specialists have personally interviewed the girl they'd be working on a second-hand anecdotal report. I can understand it happening if money changes hands - this sort of thing happens - but it seems unlikely that professionals would do that.
...

Nothing was paid, no official consultation but advices. And yes, some were more cautious and said "although we can't diagnose on an email basis, she possesses most if not all the traits of a narcissit and i advise you to distance from her... "
As for personally interviewing the girl, it wouldn't have been as simple as that because psychopaths can fool psychologists, therapists and even cheat at psychology test to appear normal.
Dr Robert Hare said even him and the best experts with all the data have been duped a few times by psychopaths.

[Randahl]

An interesting topic, and I'm a little surprised to see it in the TF forum. Positively surprised.
I am that kind of person. I don't like the term "psyco/sociopath" because it implies mental illness. A psychopath may or may not also be mentally ill, but lack of empathy (along with the other traits that make up the condition) is not in itself a mental illness. Narcissism, however, is indeed a delusional state, which is often accompanied with psychopathy, that is damaging to the narcissist her/himself. Thankfully I'm not a narcissist tho. This is not the place for trying to educate and define this, and I'd advise we don't dwell on this too much. Just trust that I know what I'm talking about after over 30 years of 1st hand experience and I'm well educated on the topic.

Now, to the issue I want to add to this thread:
In the vast majority of cases, having a close relation with a 'path (I will refer to as "P"), like a romantic one or family, will be to some extent damaging to mental wellbeing at best. And that's the case for me too. Granted that the P is not also a sadist (which unfortunately often is the case), the act of manipulation and casing emotional stress or even violence, is not with any evil intent. It's not personal. It's not coming from hate or a desire to torment. It's neutral. Like pealing an orange, putting up traps to kill pests, buying a piece of meat to cook. When you're not emotionally connected to anyone around you, hurting other humans is like you pulling up a fish with a hook; of course you know on an intellectual level that killing the fish (or any other animal you excuse yourself to eat) is the worst possible fate you could ever bring to that poor living creature, but you don't really care about that because it's not one you empathize with. Well, a P is not much different, we just add one more species (homo sapiens) to the list of animals that we use to improve our own lives. I knew I hurt people, but I never really thought about it beyond what I have to do in order to *appear* like a sweet and humble man, something which is EXTREMELY easy to do. Believe me, you all know Ps without having having a clue. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you could sense or detect that, because you don't (unless the P is very narcissistic/sadistic or of low intelligence).
Now, on the spiritual side, I can't see any reason why a P would be exempt from the spiritual realm. P is a handicap in many ways, I can agree to that, but it's not a mental illness. Saying that a P can't achieve a higher level of conviousness is like saying a person with autism or dyslexia can't. If anything, a spiritual experience can have an ever more profound effect on a P since the appearance of something so meaningful in the midst of a life otherwise mostly barren of anything having any deep sense of meaning or purpose. That is the case for me. Finding my TF is hands down the most profound thing that's ever happened to me. It's been shockingly overwhelming to suddenly be filled with all this new emotional information, having neurological pathways, which were previously virtually never used, flooding with traffic. I find meaning, I find genuine happiness, I find love! All things that were previously only vague concepts in an idyllic dream that I never thought would happen.
A TF connection not only can work with a P, it becomes the most valuable thing ever experienced. And if you know how focused and brutally goal oriented a P can be when the goal is mere pleasure or money, imagine what they will do for true love! It sounds paradoxical, but that's the beauty of it. It's an oasis in a scorching desert, or a flower breaking through the asphalt on a parking lot.

But having said that, it is my advice as a rule of thumb to always get out of any relationship that is abusive. If a P is abusing you, she/he is NOT your TF and she/he does NOT love you.

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Randahl

An interesting topic, and I'm a little surprised to see it in the TF forum. Positively surprised.
I am that kind of person. I don't like the term "psyco/sociopath" because it implies mental illness. A psychopath may or may not also be mentally ill, but lack of empathy (along with the other traits that make up the condition) is not in itself a mental illness. Narcissism, however, is indeed a delusional state, which is often accompanied with psychopathy, that is damaging to the narcissist her/himself. Thankfully I'm not a narcissist tho. This is not the place for trying to educate and define this, and I'd advise we don't dwell on this too much. Just trust that I know what I'm talking about after over 30 years of 1st hand experience and I'm well educated on the topic.

Now, to the issue I want to add to this thread:
In the vast majority of cases, having a close relation with a 'path (I will refer to as "P"), like a romantic one or family, will be to some extent damaging to mental wellbeing at best. And that's the case for me too. Granted that the P is not also a sadist (which unfortunately often is the case), the act of manipulation and casing emotional stress or even violence, is not with any evil intent. It's not personal. It's not coming from hate or a desire to torment. It's neutral. Like pealing an orange, putting up traps to kill pests, buying a piece of meat to cook. When you're not emotionally connected to anyone around you, hurting other humans is like you pulling up a fish with a hook; of course you know on an intellectual level that killing the fish (or any other animal you excuse yourself to eat) is the worst possible fate you could ever bring to that poor living creature, but you don't really care about that because it's not one you empathize with. Well, a P is not much different, we just add one more species (homo sapiens) to the list of animals that we use to improve our own lives. I knew I hurt people, but I never really thought about it beyond what I have to do in order to *appear* like a sweet and humble man, something which is EXTREMELY easy to do. Believe me, you all know Ps without having having a clue. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you could sense or detect that, because you don't (unless the P is very narcissistic/sadistic or of low intelligence).
Now, on the spiritual side, I can't see any reason why a P would be exempt from the spiritual realm. P is a handicap in many ways, I can agree to that, but it's not a mental illness. Saying that a P can't achieve a higher level of conviousness is like saying a person with autism or dyslexia can't. If anything, a spiritual experience can have an ever more profound effect on a P since the appearance of something so meaningful in the midst of a life otherwise mostly barren of anything having any deep sense of meaning or purpose. That is the case for me. Finding my TF is hands down the most profound thing that's ever happened to me. It's been shockingly overwhelming to suddenly be filled with all this new emotional information, having neurological pathways, which were previously virtually never used, flooding with traffic. I find meaning, I find genuine happiness, I find love! All things that were previously only vague concepts in an idyllic dream that I never thought would happen.
A TF connection not only can work with a P, it becomes the most valuable thing ever experienced. And if you know how focused and brutally goal oriented a P can be when the goal is mere pleasure or money, imagine what they will do for true love! It sounds paradoxical, but that's the beauty of it. It's an oasis in a scorching desert, or a flower breaking through the asphalt on a parking lot.

But having said that, it is my advice as a rule of thumb to always get out of any relationship that is abusive. If a P is abusing you, she/he is NOT your TF and she/he does NOT love you.

Why do you think it's not the place to educate and define this ?

Even if you don't like the word, you are saying you're a psychopath Randahl.
I would like to know if your TF is also a ...path, and do the people very close to you know about your psychopathy ?

For the spiritual side, psychopath can surely have spiritual experience but the thing is that they walk on the dark path, left hand path or evil path, i have no doubt about that. People who care about others walk on the right hand path, the light path or angelic path.

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Surprising - the lack of professionalism. Unless the specialists have personally interviewed the girl they'd be working on a second-hand anecdotal report. I can understand it happening if money changes hands - this sort of thing happens - but it seems unlikely that professionals would do that.

But I meant in general terms about psychology on line. To me it parallels buying prescription only medicine online. You really don't know what you're buying.
People have problems. Often they can't even frame them in a solvable way and it's all too easy to jump to wrong conclusions. Vulnerable people are indeed vulnerable to massage their problems to fit the solution they find, one of the ways their problems might be worsened.

Just a general observation is all. My suspicion of psychology is limitless!!

...

On the net i searched the topic and i've read that a forensic psychologist telling that a sociopath can successfully cheat at a psychological test to appear non sociopathic.

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Randahl

Granted that the P is not also a sadist (which unfortunately often is the case), the act of manipulation and casing emotional stress or even violence, is not with any evil intent. It's not personal. It's not coming from hate or a desire to torment. It's neutral. Like pealing an orange, putting up traps to kill pests, buying a piece of meat to cook. When you're not emotionally connected to anyone around you, hurting other humans is like you pulling up a fish with a hook; of course you know on an intellectual level that killing the fish (or any other animal you excuse yourself to eat) is the worst possible fate you could ever bring to that poor living creature, but you don't really care about that because it's not one you empathize with.

This is precisely what evil is, considering others as objects to be manipulated and hurted.

Originally Posted by Randahl

An interesting topic, and I'm a little surprised to see it in the TF forum. Positively surprised.
I am that kind of person. I don't like the term "psyco/sociopath" because it implies mental illness. A psychopath may or may not also be mentally ill, but lack of empathy (along with the other traits that make up the condition) is not in itself a mental illness. Narcissism, however, is indeed a delusional state, which is often accompanied with psychopathy, that is damaging to the narcissist her/himself. Thankfully I'm not a narcissist tho. This is not the place for trying to educate and define this, and I'd advise we don't dwell on this too much. Just trust that I know what I'm talking about after over 30 years of 1st hand experience and I'm well educated on the topic.

Now, to the issue I want to add to this thread:
In the vast majority of cases, having a close relation with a 'path (I will refer to as "P"), like a romantic one or family, will be to some extent damaging to mental wellbeing at best. And that's the case for me too. Granted that the P is not also a sadist (which unfortunately often is the case), the act of manipulation and casing emotional stress or even violence, is not with any evil intent. It's not personal. It's not coming from hate or a desire to torment. It's neutral. Like pealing an orange, putting up traps to kill pests, buying a piece of meat to cook. When you're not emotionally connected to anyone around you, hurting other humans is like you pulling up a fish with a hook; of course you know on an intellectual level that killing the fish (or any other animal you excuse yourself to eat) is the worst possible fate you could ever bring to that poor living creature, but you don't really care about that because it's not one you empathize with. Well, a P is not much different, we just add one more species (homo sapiens) to the list of animals that we use to improve our own lives. I knew I hurt people, but I never really thought about it beyond what I have to do in order to *appear* like a sweet and humble man, something which is EXTREMELY easy to do. Believe me, you all know Ps without having having a clue. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you could sense or detect that, because you don't (unless the P is very narcissistic/sadistic or of low intelligence).
Now, on the spiritual side, I can't see any reason why a P would be exempt from the spiritual realm. P is a handicap in many ways, I can agree to that, but it's not a mental illness. Saying that a P can't achieve a higher level of conviousness is like saying a person with autism or dyslexia can't. If anything, a spiritual experience can have an ever more profound effect on a P since the appearance of something so meaningful in the midst of a life otherwise mostly barren of anything having any deep sense of meaning or purpose. That is the case for me. Finding my TF is hands down the most profound thing that's ever happened to me. It's been shockingly overwhelming to suddenly be filled with all this new emotional information, having neurological pathways, which were previously virtually never used, flooding with traffic. I find meaning, I find genuine happiness, I find love! All things that were previously only vague concepts in an idyllic dream that I never thought would happen.
A TF connection not only can work with a P, it becomes the most valuable thing ever experienced. And if you know how focused and brutally goal oriented a P can be when the goal is mere pleasure or money, imagine what they will do for true love! It sounds paradoxical, but that's the beauty of it. It's an oasis in a scorching desert, or a flower breaking through the asphalt on a parking lot.

But having said that, it is my advice as a rule of thumb to always get out of any relationship that is abusive. If a P is abusing you, she/he is NOT your TF and she/he does NOT love you.

If I may say so, a most pragmatic and insightful view. Psychology is always culturally based. Psychopathy is encouraged, let alone allowed in limited ways in our society particularly in corporate circles. Psychologists avoid involvememt with such things, throwing it off to organisational sociologists!

There's a case in the UK of an Indian company about to close factories that in total would affect the lives of about 50,000 people, some 4.000 directly who would be without jobs, without the means to feed their families or pay their mortgages. But there's the Board out in India in its ivory tower looking at balance sheets, umming and ahhhing and someone says "but we can't make a profit like that." Someone else: "So we might as well throw it to the wall." "Yes, let's" everyone agrees. They probably shrug at 50,000 people's lives under threat.

This is the same kind of thing higher up the hierarchy. It's happening all over. As you say, removed from the personal consequences of their actions.

...

[Randahl]

Originally Posted by arnicamontana

Why do you think it's not the place to educate and define this ?

Because I've had that conversation a hundred times with people who are well read on the subject a hundred times. And unless you are a P yourself, and expert in the field, or have a deeper personal experience with it, there's really not any way I will make you understand by with mere text on a screen. Also this is a spiritual/TF forum, not a psychology forum.

Originally Posted by arnicamontana

Even if you don't like the word, you are saying you're a psychopath Randahl.
I would like to know if your TF is also a ...path, and do the people very close to you know about your psychopathy ?

No I don't like the word, but in lack of a better one that people understand without me having to define a new term I resort to using "psychopath" even about myself. No my twin is not a P, but she has periods where she gets strong P traits, probably because of her connection with me. No, no one else I know apart from a couple of shrinks know. At least not that I've noticed.

Originally Posted by arnicamontana

For the spiritual side, psychopath can surely have spiritual experience but the thing is that they walk on the dark path, left hand path or evil path, i have no doubt about that. People who care about others walk on the right hand path, the light path or angelic path.

So you mean I have no choice in what path I will take? Are you saying that the path I'll travel will be a dark one regardless of my choises and actions?