Epic thought experiment.space and time

[r6r6]

Originally Posted by organic born

I am working off a differing set of experiential data than you personally are exposed to, frankly I like my versions better. :)

So, we have the following;
1) conscious images via EMRadiation coming into brain,

2) unconscious images that are a collective aggregate from all of our past conscious and unconscious experiences,

3) concepts of princpless that are derived from those incoming images and other senses. Ex I can think of concept of triangle, and that triangle has no size, no color, no temperature, no volume, no mass etc....

Mind/intellect/concept-- derived from our experiences -- is instantaneous no time, no space, etc.....

Particle a and B are occupied space and whatI imagine is a an occupied space of Space-time-Space entanglement key that exists between them.

+ end view of space-time-space key

a-----++++++++++++++++----B is side-wise view of space-time-space entanglement key.

Again, we assume that thespace-time-space E-Key is is intimately associated with a and B and has a spin and a and B are always exist at 90 degrees to each other.

When we determine/observe--- a specific state/phase ---a or B then we stop the spin of E-Key and a and B at each discovered to be at 90 degrees to each others state/phase, irrespective of what state/phase we observe a or B in.

If there exists this space-time-space entanglement key that is turned or stops its spin motion, then no spooky-instantaneous action-at-a-distance is needed.

Again, a door lock key is the only analogy I have to compare this too. In my scenario above a lock is as long as the E-Key is. We turn the key or stop its spin and a and B already fixed at 90 degrees to each other.

Again, it is meangingless to use words transferred instantaneous in same sentence. Ex holy war is meaningless. There is a word for this kind of mixing of two opposites.

Oxymoron? tranferrd is motion of over time and space. Instant means no transfer over space and time.

A space-time-space entanglement key is not an oxymoron. imho

r6

[TerraStorm]

I'd certainly love to know where you get your information from with regards to your statement about "Dreaming is unconscious stated of consiousness wherein our brain often produces image associations from our experiences during the day."

To state that it is rational and logical would be inaccurate assumption.

Memory and experiences are related to the hippocampus. Theta waves are generated during REM sleep.

There are two types of theta rhythms. Hippocampal Theta and Cortical Theta.

While Hippocampal atropine resistant theta is observed during the REM sleep of animals, The EEG Rhythms recorded in humans when they experience REM (dream) sleep have a cortical theta rhythm, not hippocampal theta rhythms. They are entirely unrelated processes.

Cortical theta frequencies stem from the cerebral cortex and have no functional dependence on the hippocampus at all, therefore a broader scope of stimuli is involved in REM generated frequencies consistent with the cerebral cortex, which of course is functionally related to our creative ability. Our ability to produce new objects or stimuli from imagination. We are of sentient consciousness, we are not animals. Therefore we have the ability to produce and create from imagination. Without this function we would still be hunting and gathering and living in cave dwellings. We would not have invented architecture, art, music, vehicles or other systems of civilisation. We wouldn't have imagined any of it at all. This is what separates us from animal consciousness. Imagination is limitless, and as a function of our consciousness it would be impossible to measure. So to state that our dreams are derived entirely from memory and experiences would imply that we are nothing but animals, incapable of creating anything new, imagining anything new at all in our dream state of consciousness.

Are you basing your assumptions on old outdated Freudian psychology rather than current neuroscience?

Originally Posted by r6r6r

OG, if you come to believe that, then your dreaming.

I would begin rational, logical common sense. Dreaming is unconscious stated of consiousness wherein our brain oftten produces image associations from our experiences during the day.

I think the error your making is taking mental images that are the transitional twilight zone between;

1) metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts of space, and not an actual space, with,

2) an actual occupied space that has volume/distance/size ergo properties of motion/time/frequencies.

So, we have the following;
1) conscious images via EMRadiation coming into brain,

2) unconscious images that are a collective aggregate from all of our past conscious and unconscious experiences,

3) concepts of princpless that are derived from those incoming images and other senses. Ex I can think of concept of triangle, and that triangle has no size, no color, no temperature, no volume, no mass etc....

Mind/intellect/concept-- derived from our experiences -- is instantaneous no time, no space, etc.....

Particle a and B are occupied space and whatI imagine is a an occupied space of Space-time-Space entanglement key that exists between them.

+ end view of space-time-space key

a-----++++++++++++++++----B is side-wise view of space-time-space entanglement key.

Again, we assume that thespace-time-space E-Key is is intimately associated with a and B and has a spin and a and B are always exist at 90 degrees to each other.

When we determine/observe--- a specific state/phase ---a or B then we stop the spin of E-Key and a and B at each discovered to be at 90 degrees to each others state/phase, irrespective of what state/phase we observe a or B in.

If there exists this space-time-space entanglement key that is turned or stops its spin motion, then no spooky-instantaneous action-at-a-distance is needed.

Again, a door lock key is the only analogy I have to compare this too. In my scenario above a lock is as long as the E-Key is. We turn the key or stop its spin and a and B already fixed at 90 degrees to each other.

Again, it is meangingless to use words transferred instantaneous in same sentence. Ex holy war is meaningless. There is a word for this kind of mixing of two opposites.

Oxymoron? tranferrd is motion of over time and space. Instant means no transfer over space and time.

A space-time-space entanglement key is not an oxymoron. imho

r6

[r6r6]

TerraStorm---I'd certainly love to know where you get your information from with regards to your statement about "Dreaming is unconscious stated of consiousness wherein our brain often produces image associations from our experiences during the day."

1) from my own many years of such experiences---did your mother never tell you when your were child, to not watch scary movies before bed? Mine did tho I never really made the connection between events during day or previous days untill some gradual growing awareness of that occurring.

2) also recall reading a yoga(?) book as teenager and one of the things the had us do was to stare at our hands before going to sleep and try to intentionall make those images appear in our dreams that night. Never worked for me

To state that it is rational and logical would be inaccurate assumption.

I dont know what your referencing here so cannot address.

Ive read a couple other books regarding dreaming and various web sites over the years but my own experiences are the clearest evidence my dreaming comments often being images, sounds or some thing we read during the day or nigtn before going to sleep.

Are you basing your assumptions on old outdated Freudian psychology rather than current neuroscience?

They are based on my experiences and information based on others. Ditto all of the above comments.

To be clear Ive never dreamed of a spacetime entanglement key, that is conscious choice to imagine what are the mechanics occurring with spooky-action-at-a-distance entanglement.

Space-Time-Space I believe is involved if not the actual mechanical-like key to that mystery. imho

r6

[lemex]

so now imagine there is a observer floating in space ,he/she is the size of a normal human,and this person is watching everything happen.

now,how long would it take for the large you's hand to reach the earth from the smaller observer's perspective?

i believe that from the small persons perspective your hand would appear to be moving slowly

and i believe that from the large you's perspective your hand only took about a split second to reach earth.



its like space and time changes itself based on the perspective of each person,in order to keep the speed of light a constant speed.

Can't agree with the length of time you're using as a perception as it would be much greater in real time by reality. Yes the hand would appear to be moving slowly by the smaller you. Being self aware though the hand of the larger you would recognize it's taking time. It would be experiencing time. Of course this comes from my study of time and is my road block but to come up with the correct conclusion can't be denied as described below.

Still I think it's impressive if you didn't know of what Einstein said to have come up with idea you have. Instead of perspective this is what actually happens so it is more than a perspective. Reality first, perception second, but perception comes from reality. This might be synchronism about what was being thought seeing it's part of science and there's even more.

The faster one moves toward the speed of light the formula is kept in balance by the shifting of it's elements. Go faster is offset by less time and gaining mass, going slower less mass and expansion of time. I wish I could explain this better as I read it somewhere. The speed of light is the absolute where other things we once thought were are not. Hope I've outlined it well enough.

[WabiSabi]

What you have touched upon is the notion of relativity.
Yes, elapsed time is a matter of perspective.
Imagine that you have a human who lives 80 years, and an ant that lives seven days.
For a human being, a single day does not last very long, and the days get shorter and shorter as time goes on, as each day becomes a smaller portion relative to the total amount of time they have lived.
In comparison, a day for an ant must last a long time indeed, as they only experience seven days in their lifetime.
We humans like to base time on external factors, such as the rotation of the Earth around its axis, and the orbit of the Earth around the sun, but in reality that binds us to a notion of universal time that completely ignores the perception of time.
In reality, the perception of time is what really defines time.
A very large existence that lives for a very long time will probably perceive things at our scale as moving very fast.
A day for us is a mere moment for them, as a single orbit of the Earth around the sun is a very small proportion of their vast lifetime.
The universe is completely relative.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by TerraStorm

I'd certainly love to know where you get your information from with regards to your statement about "Dreaming is unconscious stated of consiousness wherein our brain often produces image associations from our experiences during the day."

To state that it is rational and logical would be inaccurate assumption.

Memory and experiences are related to the hippocampus. Theta waves are generated during REM sleep.

There are two types of theta rhythms. Hippocampal Theta and Cortical Theta.

While Hippocampal atropine resistant theta is observed during the REM sleep of animals, The EEG Rhythms recorded in humans when they experience REM (dream) sleep have a cortical theta rhythm, not hippocampal theta rhythms. They are entirely unrelated processes.

Cortical theta frequencies stem from the cerebral cortex and have no functional dependence on the hippocampus at all, therefore a broader scope of stimuli is involved in REM generated frequencies consistent with the cerebral cortex, which of course is functionally related to our creative ability. Our ability to produce new objects or stimuli from imagination. We are of sentient consciousness, we are not animals. Therefore we have the ability to produce and create from imagination. Without this function we would still be hunting and gathering and living in cave dwellings. We would not have invented architecture, art, music, vehicles or other systems of civilisation. We wouldn't have imagined any of it at all. This is what separates us from animal consciousness. Imagination is limitless, and as a function of our consciousness it would be impossible to measure. So to state that our dreams are derived entirely from memory and experiences would imply that we are nothing but animals, incapable of creating anything new, imagining anything new at all in our dream state of consciousness.

Are you basing your assumptions on old outdated Freudian psychology rather than current neuroscience?

Remarkable reply TerraStorm! Beautifully researched! :)

[organic born]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

1) from my own many years of such experiences---did your mother never tell you when your were child, to not watch scary movies before bed? Mine did tho I never really made the connection between events during day or previous days untill some gradual growing awareness of that occurring.

2) also recall reading a yoga(?) book as teenager and one of the things the had us do was to stare at our hands before going to sleep and try to intentionall make those images appear in our dreams that night. Never worked for me


I dont know what your referencing here so cannot address.

Ive read a couple other books regarding dreaming and various web sites over the years but my own experiences are the clearest evidence my dreaming comments often being images, sounds or some thing we read during the day or nigtn before going to sleep.




They are based on my experiences and information based on others. Ditto all of the above comments.

To be clear Ive never dreamed of a spacetime entanglement key, that is conscious choice to imagine what are the mechanics occurring with spooky-action-at-a-distance entanglement.

Space-Time-Space I believe is involved if not the actual mechanical-like key to that mystery. imho

r6

So if it doesn't happen to you personally then it isn't worthy of further consideration? I went a period of time when I wasn't dreaming at all. Based on your logic I could freely make a case that nobody else was dreaming either. I ran across a book that encouraged me to start keeping a dream diary. So I did, within a couple of weeks I was spending roughly a half hour to 45 minutes every morning doing nothing but writing down the dreams I was now remembering. Based on your logic now 'everybody' is dreaming as much as I was daily remembering.

I don't see the wisdom in making empirical and dismissive statements based strictly on personalized theory or fly-by-night logic. Naughty, naughty naughty.

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by lemex

Can't agree with the length of time you're using as a perception as it would be much greater in real time by reality. Yes the hand would appear to be moving slowly by the smaller you. Being self aware though the hand of the larger you would recognize it's taking time. It would be experiencing time. Of course this comes from my study of time and is my road block but to come up with the correct conclusion can't be denied as described below.

Still I think it's impressive if you didn't know of what Einstein said to have come up with idea you have. Instead of perspective this is what actually happens so it is more than a perspective. Reality first, perception second, but perception comes from reality. This might be synchronism about what was being thought seeing it's part of science and there's even more.

The faster one moves toward the speed of light the formula is kept in balance by the shifting of it's elements. Go faster is offset by less time and gaining mass, going slower less mass and expansion of time. I wish I could explain this better as I read it somewhere. The speed of light is the absolute where other things we once thought were are not. Hope I've outlined it well enough.

yes!your amazing! im so glad someone acually understands my point to this exsperiment.i began to doubt myself and question if my statments even made sence lol.
and its crazy that you mentioned that mass plays a role in this,i did not have this fully worked out but i was sure that mass had to have somthing to do with this,i recently read that eistein discoverd that the faster mass travels,the more energy it carries, and that the faster it travels the more mass it has,(i think o.0)
now things are making a littler more sence :)

so all this is leading me to belive that the more mass an object has,the more time dilates.
it kinda makes sense once you understand that mass is energy and speed adds energy, there for, it has more mass/energy wich causes the time dilation (i think lol)
please correct me if im misunderstanding something

[r6r6]

organic born----So if it doesn't happen to you personally then it isn't worthy of further consideration?

Huh? When did I state that. I think your confused OG.

You think dreaming is some answer that involves transferrment of information instantaeously to the mysterious spooky-at-distance entanglement.

That just makes no sense to me and certainly no evidence I'm aware of that adds credibity to such ideas. Dream on

I went a period of time when I wasn't dreaming at all. Based on your logic I could freely make a case that nobody else was dreaming either.

My logic never stated that people dont dream. I think your really confused and making misreprsenations of my comments as stated.

Look dude, nobody here telling you or anyone else to dream or not to dream. You appear to be really confused as your appear to misrepresent my comments as stated.

I believe there exists mechanical spacetime answer the mystery of entangment ergo no dreaming is involve, no oxymoron transferment instaneous information etc type ideas that are beyond space and time ergo metaphysical.

Metaphysical-1 is mind/intellect/concepts accessed via brain/nervous system. Nothing mystical their.

I think you and some others think because there is a mystery there must be a hokey pokey mystical answer.

A space-time-space mechanical key is relatively simple answer that has analogies we use in our common everyday lifes. No hokey pokey beyond defining what is spacetime( space-time-space ) and the specifics of how it correlates to our everyday reality.

IVe ream in colors all my life and many very vivid andwonderfully wild dreams as well are reoccuring dreams that relate to my not finding a private place to take a dump or others and then there are those occasional nightmares. I love dreaming.

Why you or others would make false representations of my views on anyone dreaming makes no sense.

r6

[TerraStorm]

Okay I think you've actually misinterpreted the dynamics of space-time and the metaphysical - especially involving entanglement.

You do realise they are employing holographic duality in entanglement. Especially the entanglement of quarks in the 4th dimension to measure that resulting emergence in the 5th dimension.

Holographic duality is a property not only of quantum gravity but string theory. Being as their recent experiments with quarks have resulted in a 5th dimensional emergence of a wormhole creating entanglement, we can now utilise the function of a 5th dimensional model of space-time rather than the 4th dimensional temporal space-time model. Quarks are a fundamental constituent of matter, and being as they exist in both a 4th dimensional and 5th dimensional capacity, the 4th dimension can no longer be construed as a temporal construct, but dimensions with their own particles of matter that function inside states that correlate to those higher dimensions

Using this 5th dimensional model of space-time, we have only have one of those dimensions (the 3rd dimension), in which we physically occupy and can observe particles and forces that correlate to this dimension. We physically experience in 3rd dimensional space-time. It doesnt mean there are no particles and forces in higher dimensional states. It just means those higher dimensional states are outside our current physical state of experience. The 3rd dimension is termed the physical dimension, a dimension that contains matter in a physical state that we experience as part of our physical reality.

Metaphysics is the study of the properties and dynamics of objects, existence, reality of space-time outside of the physical dimension. That is why they term it Metaphysical.
Since current physics has now determined not only the existence but the ability to create particles of matter outside of the third dimension. It means that those particles and matter exist in a dimensional reality outside of our third dimensional physical reality of experience.
That is what the study of metaphysics is. The study of reality and existence outside of physical reality. Metaphysicians have studied the dynamics and behaviours of realities outside of 3rd dimensional space-time long before Physics even determined any kind of fundamental particles existing in higher dimensions. Actual metaphysicians believe that there is a functional dynamic to explain reality outside of physical reality, current physics is just aiding to determine those dynamics.

Metaphysical is not a mind/intellect/concepts accessed via brain/nervous system, where on earth did you come up with that idea?

Metaphysics is a philosophy that was defined during a period where all science was termed philosphy, as the study of which all phenomena could be explained, all phenomena, even realities outside of physical existence. It even deals with both the cosmology and cosmogeny of the universe, without this metaphysical principle of cosmology developed in ancient greece we would never have pursued the cosmological model of the big bang theory. The term metaphysical isnt defined by mind/intellect and brain/nervous system, metaphysical is a term to define phenomena outside of physical reality.

This being said how on earth do you know that no dreaming is involved in entanglement? Dreaming is what our consciousness experiences outside of physical reality, your consciousness is interacting with matter/reality outside of physical reality. Our consciousness is no longer experiencing physical reality while we are dreaming, so where in space-time is our consciousness while we experience other realities while we dream, what space is our consciousness utilising to construct and interact with these realities. Consciousness actually exists otherwise we wouldnt be living thinking beings we would just be inanimate objects in space-time, so what particles or force is applied to consciousness to exist in this dimension? Does it have both properties, what is its fundamental makeup, do those properties have different states, how do those properties behave in space-time. Are they dynamic properties or are they limited to certain areas of space-time, do these properties have limitations in their interactions with space-time dimensions or does it utilise a particle that can interact with particles in higher space-time dimensions.

How can you determine whether entanglement is involved in dreaming when we dont even have know the fundamental particle or force that correlates to consciousness or the matter/reality construct of dreams? I'm speaking of its existence, because everthing in the universe has a fundamental or elementary particle or force associated with it. Determining its behaviour or function. So what is the force or particle that determines the behaviour of consciousness? how does it interact with other particles, until we can determine this we cant determine the fundamentals of dream reality and how consciousness creates and interacts with that reality, or even where it does this! We dont even know if entanglement is involved or not. So i'd love to know how you know this, when its hasnt even been determined yet in physics.

Originally Posted by r6r6r

I believe there exists mechanical spacetime answer the mystery of entangment ergo no dreaming is involve, no oxymoron transferment instaneous information etc type ideas that are beyond space and time ergo metaphysical.

Metaphysical-1 is mind/intellect/concepts accessed via brain/nervous system. Nothing mystical their.

I think you and some others think because there is a mystery there must be a hokey pokey mystical answer.

A space-time-space mechanical key is relatively simple answer that has analogies we use in our common everyday lifes. No hokey pokey beyond defining what is spacetime( space-time-space ) and the specifics of how it correlates to our everyday reality

r6