No God

[r6r6]

7luminaries---These needs are more important than nearly any other for the intrinsically weaker and the intrinsically more vulnerable.......these are inherent needs (for physical and bodily safety) day-to-day of the weaker and more vulnerable on their journey to live from centre in equanimity and with lovingkindness for one and all equally. Peace & blessings 7L[/quote]
Equanimity mind stems from breathing, eating, sleeping, digestive processes, human attention, orgasm, dance via music in that order are the primary set of 7 that aid me personally in finding my personal equanimity of mind.

7L, we are all 'born free' within the contextual set of circumstances of our environment irrespective of any and all potential dangers, that, each individual will deal with, ---each in their own way--- that those 6 + = 7 primaries will directly effect our ability to contemplate/meditate on our circumstances.

And yes, we could have shelter instead of dance via music, however, in some circumstances, dance and music can occur without need for shelter.

Shelter/clothing is likened to security and safety and aids in having a secure safe dry place to contemplate/meditate, when it is too cold or too wet outside.

So maybe 6 + 2 = 8. Again, each individual will deal with the circumstances they are born into differrently and in some cases that may mean they will remove themselves from on set of circumstances, to get more freedom, however, they may find themselves in equally, or more dire set of circumstances, to contemplate/mediate upon.

The only differrence may be that they have fulfilled their personal desires for whatever it is there seeking, freedom from;

freedom from a man{ men }
freedom from a woman{ women }
freedom from a parent{ man or woman }

freedom from tigers
freedom from disease

freedom from cold climate
freedom from leeches

freedom from noise{ city }
freedom from mundane boredom{ small country town }

So on and so on. We all are 'born free' with what ever set of circumstances. 6 + 2 = 8 circumstances that are immediate to most of us, barring other external factors that limit/constrain our freedoms.

We are born into life and life has it limits/constraints. None are created equal. Humans pass laws that are meant to enable equality in many circumstances.

There exists no perfect systems, only varying standards of livings and each individuals personal feelings of security/safety, and happiness, to whatever degree, within those systems their born into and/or the ones they choose to move too.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

7luminaries---These needs are more important than nearly any other for the intrinsically weaker and the intrinsically more vulnerable.......these are inherent needs (for physical and bodily safety) day-to-day of the weaker and more vulnerable on their journey to live from centre in equanimity and with lovingkindness for one and all equally. Peace & blessings 7L

Equanimity mind stems from breathing, eating, sleeping, digestive processes, human attention, orgasm, dance via music in that order are the primary set of 7 that aid me personally in finding my personal equanimity of mind.

….

We are born into life and life has it limits/constraints. None are created equal. Humans pass laws that are meant to enable equality in many circumstances.

There exists no perfect systems, only varying standards of livings and each individuals personal feelings of security/safety, and happiness, to whatever degree, within those systems their born into and/or the ones they choose to move too.

r6, hello!
Again, I disagree that your hierarchy of needs is the same for everyone. I also think it goes without saying that laws alone cannot address the bulk of the imbalances, even beyond the fact that existing laws fail to address most of the fundamental imbalances we observe in human society.

YES, there are and will always be fundamental differences in that hierarchy of needs, and YES, they are based DIRECTLY on the intrinsic imbalances that exist within our human species. And YES, ultimately, it is the responsibility of each of us and all of us to seek to manifest and sustain equanimity both individually and collectively, such that we address the most foundational imbalances.

Some of us are intrinsically weaker and intrinsically more vulnerable. Others are intrinsically stronger and intrinsically less vulnerable. There are clear spiritual challenges all round.
However, the lion's share of the manifest obligation will always rest upon the shoulders of the intrinsically more powerful, less vulnerable, and thus more advantaged and more privileged.

That is because, beyond breathing (at least for now that is free), all other needs constitute access to resources which ultimately the strong can, will, and DO control through direct or indirect force (their own fists, or the fist of armies/weapons/state authority).

Equanimity at centre of one and all equally is consciously sustained through manifest action ensuring equal access to resources that address our key needs. Mine being somewhat different to yours, as I fall into the intrinsically weaker and intrinsically more vulnerable. I cannot exist and certainly cannot thrive without addressing my hierarchy of needs, same as you. Difference being that I ultimately exist at your whim and at the whim of all those who are more powerful and who can easily assault, rape, or oppress me by force or threat in any situation.

I (and all who are intrinsically weaker and more vulnerable) ultimately can never attain free, equal, and necessary access to resources to address MY hierarchy of needs unless you (and all who are intrinsically more powerful and less vulnerable) grant it or allow it or support it.

That inherent, intrinsic power REQUIRES your ownership and your acknowledgement of your inherently greater responsibility in any situation where you can (at your whim) enforce your will over others who are more vulnerable, IF equanimity and lovingkindness are extended mutually and reciprocally to the social community and larger environment in which you and I and all others must exist and obtain resources to address our fundamental hierarchy of needs.

The need for parity and equal consideration of physical safety and bodily integrity in our day-to-day engagement is a critical need for half of humanity...right up there with breathing.
It remains firmly on our hierarchy of needs and it remains near the very top.


It comes down to this..

1) You have rightly acknowledged that attaining and sustaining equanimity of mind and body comprises a variety of core foundational physical needs, along with (further down) emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs.

2) The hierarchy of needs differs foundationally amongst the intrinsically stronger and the intrinsically weaker, due to intrinsic (foundational) differences in our physical humanity, at the most basic level.

That is, what we require to simply exist (to exist individually AND to exist collectively) differs.

3) Equanimity exists as we (humanity) do, both as a function of our individual and collective existence.

4) Given this, the foundational needs of the intrinsically weaker and more vulnerable REQUIRE that the intrinsically more powerful & less vulnerable acknowledge and own their greater power, and that they take ownership for the greater responsibilities that this greater power entails.

5) This is the way of equanimity, to (consciously) manifest what is required to attain balance for one and all equally.

And the way of equanimity from centre will manifest lovingkindness in the very act of addressing imbalance and seeking balance.

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

7luminaries---r6, hello! Again, I disagree that your hierarchy of needs is the same for everyone.

Ok 7L, then please post yours. Here is my relatively simple 6 + 1 = 7 set, and again, I leave off shelter{ security/safety } because in some some circumstance all of the others can occur without clothing/shelter needed.

Equanimity mind stems from breathing, eating, sleeping, digestive processes, human attention, orgasm, dance via music in that order are the primary set of 7 that aid me personally in finding my personal equanimity of mind.

Your set goes here >____fill in the blank___________

[r6r6]

7luminaries--YES, there are and will always be fundamental differences in that hierarchy of needs, and YES, they are based DIRECTLY on the intrinsic imbalances that exist within our human species.

Circumstances includes more than just "our human species". I was very clear on this and you dont seem to grasp the significance of my use of that word 'cirumstances' to be more inclusive, and not less inclusive as your given above does i.e. your given above is is just one part of any greater set of circumstances that we are 'born free' into.

[7luminaries]

Ok 7L, then please post yours.

r6, I have posted mine earlier, and I think there were 8 items, using your general hierarchy but modifying, collapsing, and adding where critical.

I think it is fine to say this is MY hierarchy and even that it would broadly care for those like me.

But that it's not relevant to say that MY hierarchy is applicable to you or to all others, particularly for those broadly and intrinsically different to me.
The hierarchies define different "resources" that we need or require to survive and/or to function at a baseline level of integrity and wholeness.
And access to those resources is constrained first and foremost by our intrinsic power and intrinsic vulnerability differential. That is simple fact.

Quote:

Circumstances includes more than just "our human species". I was very clear on this and you dont seem to grasp the significance of my use of that word 'cirumstances' to be more inclusive, and not less inclusive as your given above does i.e. your given above is is just one part of any greater set of circumstances that we are 'born free' into.

r6, of course it is a very basic level of mitigation...the basic physical level of intrinsic difference which clearly serves to mitigate and differentiate access to the "resources" needed to address our respective hierarchies.

The additional "levels" or factors beyond the physical are irrelevant in the larger sense. No matter what those may be, no matter how broadly or narrowly we may be intrinsically favoured in the material realm, and no matter where we are on our spiritual journeys, EVERY incarnation is an opportunity to move into equanimous right-alignment with self AND others...and more broadly all that is. We are certainly responsible for ourselves AND our contribution to humanity...and more broadly to all that is.

Our individual humanity exists and comes to be in community, in the human collective. Toward collectivity and interbeing, we can and arguably should start with addressing the most foundational, concrete intrinsic imbalances which are used to perpetrate misalignment.

Focusing on the most obvious and concrete fundamental axis of difference, it is physical and even more obviously and substantially rooted in our physical sex. This is the root of the inherent weakness and inherent physical vulnerability of one half of humanity relative to the other, who is inherently more powerful and less vulnerable. And it is this obvious and concrete fundamental axis of broad, intrinsic difference which has been exploited and abused egregiously to perpetrate misalignment and dehumanisation since time immemorial. Thus, it is something we are called to address with EACH and every incarnation, whether male or female but ESPECIALLY if we are male and therefore intrinsically advantaged in the power differential. And certainly in pursuit of equanimity and equanimous lovingkindness both individually and collectively.

Because the intrinsic power differential cannot be changed genetically and is resistant to merely superficial (external) treatments, the power and vulnerability differential is at the very core of our movement both individually and collectively toward equanimity and balance. Toward right-alignment with all that is.

Addressing the intrinsic power differential must ultimately be done mindfully and consciously in every moment, as this intrinsic advantage can be used by men over women either toward misalignment OR toward alignment. Either toward imbalance, predation, and dehumanisation (misalignment) OR toward balance in equanimity, honourable coexistence, and parity.

This stark choice must be consciously owned, consciously revised, and consciously addressed in each moment. Currently the equanimity and the general state of being of the powerful rests on imbalance. On both the implicit and overt use of force and threat of force.

Only when the foundational use or threat of force is consciously addressed and intentionally re-balanced in each moment, will the powerful AND the weak/vulnerable each attain a truly in(ter)dependent equanimity and balance.
Only then is your equanimity or mine or whomever's interdependent (i.e., healthy and unbounded), rather than codependent (based on an inherent structural relationship of force and predation).
Only then is anyone's foundational equanimity and balance -- as described by our different hierarchies -- truly whole, integral, and no longer implicitly or overtly (co)dependent on the power differential and the whims of the powerful.

Humanity, and certainly our individuated consciousness, exist in interbeing and not in a vaccuum. This is truth, and many if not most are still struggling with ownership and interbeing, and the clear implications for the individual.

Peace & blessings
7L

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I (and all who are intrinsically weaker and more vulnerable) ultimately can never attain free, equal, and necessary access to resources to address MY hierarchy of needs unless you (and all who are intrinsically more powerful and less vulnerable) grant it or allow it or support it.

In Buddhism, from what I have seen, people live within their means. Society is not expected to divide all resources to everyone. That form of government generally does not work. If a person gets into a temporarily 'bind', they generally can go to the temple and borrow temporarily from the monks.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

That inherent, intrinsic power REQUIRES your ownership and your acknowledgement of your inherently greater responsibility in any situation where you can (at your whim) enforce your will over others who are more vulnerable, IF equanimity and lovingkindness are extended mutually and reciprocally to the social community and larger environment in which you and I and all others must exist and obtain resources to address our fundamental hierarchy of needs.

If you look at really poor people, they get by on only a small percentage of what we have. To be free, carries the old connotation of being independent and self sustaining.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

The need for parity and equal consideration of physical safety and bodily integrity in our day-to-day engagement is a critical need for half of humanity...right up there with breathing.
It remains firmly on our hierarchy of needs and it remains near the very top.

As far as I know, Buddhist do not expect parity.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It comes down to this..

1) You have rightly acknowledged that attaining and sustaining equanimity of mind and body comprises a variety of core foundational physical needs, along with (further down) emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs.

2) The hierarchy of needs differs foundationally amongst the intrinsically stronger and the intrinsically weaker, due to intrinsic (foundational) differences in our physical humanity, at the most basic level.

That is, what we require to simply exist (to exist individually AND to exist collectively) differs.

3) Equanimity exists as we (humanity) do, both as a function of our individual and collective existence.

4) Given this, the foundational needs of the intrinsically weaker and more vulnerable REQUIRE that the intrinsically more powerful & less vulnerable acknowledge and own their greater power, and that they take ownership for the greater responsibilities that this greater power entails.

5) This is the way of equanimity, to (consciously) manifest what is required to attain balance for one and all equally.

And the way of equanimity from centre will manifest lovingkindness in the very act of addressing imbalance and seeking balance.

Equanimity resonates with Buddhism but it is not used to address imbalances.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

This stark choice must be consciously owned, consciously revised, and consciously addressed in each moment. Currently the equanimity and the general state of being of the powerful rests on imbalance. On both the implicit and overt use of force and threat of force.

Your usage of equanimity does seem to resonate with Buddhism.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Agreed Gem. Choiceless observation is important. Equally important after that, IMO, is taking conscious choices, having come to centre and having reflected. It's a constant 1-2 step process, in a sense. It is owing all we are and all we feel, sorting that, keeping the mindful state whilst acknowledging where we're at and what resonates or what is blocked. And continuing to make mindful choices in word and deed (and ideally intent and thought as well, as those are all of a piece).

Not one to deny choices have to be made so I can't disagree, but if defining equanimity as non-reactivity, making conscious deliberate choices is possible when on is not compelled by a wild mind. For example, one in rage might be compelled to belt the spouse, but is that really a choice or is it a wild compulsion they can't help? Conversely, one with equanimity of mind would be far less likely do that, and we would say they make 'different choices', but is it a different choice, or is it just the absence of compulsion? Either way, better outcomes from equanimity than from wild reactivity. More happier.

Hoo boy is it ever unbalanced, and often these mindsets are also the most fixed and least flexible. Rigidity is not compatible with balance, which requires a grounded flexibility, including the humility that normally develops with rigourous practice and taking (ownership of) conscious choices.

Dealing with rigidity and slavish adherence to doctrine (secular, religious, w/e) is a good test of equanimity BTW...and ultimately of acceptance in what is, LOL...as folks are wherever they are. And whilst there is a lot of imbalance, everyone needs the space to both name it and claim it, variously, back and forth, and thus through experience, dialogue, and/or reflection to ultimately apprehend what pile of poo is specifically theirs to name and claim.

It is hard to say anything here without starting an argument, and even if I say equanimity is awareness sans reactivity = awareness and equanimity, people will argue, and I could take direct quotes from the Satipatthana (the Buddhist discourse on mindfulness) to prove I'm right, but actually, I'm not even involved in the argument at all because I can see how the mind desires knowledge being right, because fundamentally speaking, all clinging amounts to clinging to the known. Krishnamurti once said people do not fear the unknown; what people fear is losing the known. I mean to say that the mind in argument is reacting, and it's better to be aware of what mind is doing that being 'right'. Indeed 'right' in Buddhist philosophy has a nuanced meaning related to wisdom rather than knowledge. I just wonder if wisdom is about making 'wise choices' or if wisdom brings about actions which create conditions for happiness rather than conditions for misery. In Buddhist philosophy ignorance is strongly associated with suffering, and ignorance basically means 'incomplete awareness' in Buddhist thought. It's natural then that wisdom pertains to fuller awareness, more acute attention etc, as antithetical to ignorance, and conducive to happiness. Even enlightenment is referred to as "highest wisdom", and perhaps making conscious choices only means one is conscious, rather that unconscious, of what they do.


This is also supported in Christianity. "They know not what they do". They torture Christ out of ignorance, unawareness, unconsciousness - not because they are choosing anything per se, but because they are not conscious of mind's processes. If they were aware on mind's processes, they would not likely do that, but is 'wise actions' (what we call 'right action') actually chosen, or is it due to wisdom which is a more complete awareness?

Well...equanimity is really not a high thing IMO. More a very low and grounded one. Simply actively seeking and supporting the highest good of all equally to yourself, and of yourself equally to all. From centre, in the moment.

Here on SF, I am often quite deliberate but equally in consideration of where others are and how they engage or respond. It may take time to better ascertain and so forth. There's a fine line when you seek to engage others and share reflections or insights, requiring deliberation IMO. Some may not wish to do so and if no other free exchange is possible at the mo, then it's good to deliberately disengage or agree to disagree.

IRL, yes, I am very deliberate regarding experiences and am not at all moved to engage or respond unless I choose to do so. TBH, I was always this way at core, not moved by the herd and wondering what the hell was motivating them toward repeated degrading, abusive, self-destructive behaviours, or toward repeated demanding others perform those roles for them. Unless it's your parents or your child (where you have legal obligations and a deep bond)...I cannot fathom why else anyone would otherwise choose to be controlled, degraded, or to endure abuse for any length of time. As a very close soul fam member would ideally never seek to abuse, degrade, or harm you in any way...but if so they too must be put aside in the absence of manifest authentic love IMO (willing/seeking the good of the other with equanimous lovingkindness). Same with any partner relationship.

The reality is we are only ever who we are, no matter when or where. So the sooner we realise this, the more time we can spend with ourselves in the world as we are and not in denial of this. That is the big obstacle to ownership. And lack of ownership, individually and collectively, is at the heart of why humanity are destroying the planet and killing ourselves.

Agreed.

Peace & blessings
7L

It's not an easy life and even when intentions are for the best people can be neglectful and cruel to each other, but since this is perpetuated by compulsion I can't see how blame is relevant. I think they have unresolved life issues, but so do I as does everyone else, so I understand all that... no one's perfect, but we do our best to create the impression that we're 'all that'. My own way is to be conscious of what's going on with myself at all times so 'I know just what I do'.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by running

just being oneself is the least attaching thing one can do in my view. bliss being more enjoyable than all other things. the concern i see is imaginary if in that space. there is some effort to stay involved. cause again bliss is more enjoyable than all other things. so i see it as backwards to the concern. based on what i experience from the perspective of bliss and silence.

Seems like an attachment.

What is oneself? Is it the experience of bliss and silence? Is it the experience of energy?

I would say no it isn’t as those are just experiences and that one has to still go further.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

In Buddhism, from what I have seen, people live within their means. Society is not expected to divide all resources to everyone. That form of government generally does not work. If a person gets into a temporarily 'bind', they generally can go to the temple and borrow temporarily from the monks.


If you look at really poor people, they get by on only a small percentage of what we have. To be free, carries the old connotation of being independent and self sustaining.


As far as I know, Buddhist do not expect parity.

Equanimity resonates with Buddhism but it is not used to address imbalances.

BigJ, I believe we have a fundamental difference of perspective, owing to being different individuals with different experiences in this life and in other lifetimes. And that's fine...we each are where we are.

If we look only to the individual, or to the individual and how society functions "on top of" the individual, as a separate layer, then we can come to your perspective or to many other variants of it.

If we look at the individual and society as one cloth, as the product of our interbeing, then none of those lines you've drawn around the individual or society is real, enduring, or substantive. And the illuminated implications are vast and multifaceted.

In fact, I find the more deeply I have ventured into Buddhist philosophy, the more deeply and fully my perspectives are illuminated in these areas I've shared.
But wait, hahaha...there's only an infinity of diversity and multitudes remaining. I've only just BEGUN to penetrate some of the depths and the implications.

And I wish you all the best on your journey of discovery as well. So long as you don't hold rigidly or fixedly to your sanity, your certainty, your pride, your intellect, your habituated perspectives...then no worries.
As come what may, with the mutual support of your fellow travellers, you'll do just fine

Peace & blessings
7L