[7luminaries]

Gents -- hello and this is a very interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by God-Like

If it rains one can strip naked, if it's hot one can put on a onesie or like you say if it rains one can open an umbrella for these are all self preferences .. Why doesn't one want to get wet in the rain if it's not ego related?

Originally Posted by Gem

The ego perspective seems to be of the impression that 'I' did it, but actually there was a psychological reaction to circumstance as part of one universal motion.

What I apprehend is that both of these perspectives come from truth -- though terminology may vary -- in that we are individuated consciousness incarnated in a body, and we are also part of the universal One. Our individuated consciousness is "real" in the sense of non-illusory -- as is the state of our interbeing in the universal One. For me, neither of these perspectives is illusory. They are both aspects of truth, of individuation, interbeing, and oneness.

On the other hand, identifying with either of these apart from authentic love (in lovingkindness and equanimity) would and does yield an illusory, non-real perspective.

Meaning, if I identify with my individuated experience and my being as being more important, more real, or the only real thing (the real "One", hahaha) than the experience of others and their being...that is non-real or illusory. Service to self is non-real or illusory in this same way. Meaning, over the span of the eternal moment, it (domination) cannot and thus will not endure.

Likewise, valuing the others and the Oneness over my individuated consciousness, abnegation and identification with all else as more worthy than my own individuated consciousness is also not manifesting authentic love. And over the span of the eternal now, it (abnegation) cannot and thus will not endure.

Originally Posted by God-Like

You are speaking as if the ego has an impression from a third person perspective, when it's the ego that has the impression that you are having an impression that you did it . You seem to distance the impression that you did it by saying how the ego gives an impression . Either way it's an idea about yourself that you have that is ego related . There really is no way around this idea about oneself in reflection of this reality unless one is absent of being aware of this reality butt on some level I AM aware of some reality and there remains an idea about oneself unless there is awareness beyond any self reflection .

Originally Posted by Gem

In my case I see the ego in the third person and it's not a 'nice' thing. It is basically deceptive in assuming the position of me. But I'm onto it, though, and I can see it as 'not I', and I think in time it will dissolve completely. I also saw directly that which reveals my nature, so the distinction between a false sense of self and who I actually am is pretty clear to me.

Sensing and perceiving en route to ownership
The references to sensing and perceiving are analogous to our own apprehension and manifestation, it seems to me. Daz spoke of reflection and ideas...Daz, do you also mean reflection in the "visual" sense of seeing or perceiving in the mind's eye, as well as conceptually? Gem spoke of seeing his "not I", which to me says the perception is both conceptual and also something in the mind's eye (which may be my assumption).

I think I get what Daz says about the criticality of ownership on the spiritual path and I think Gem is actually also speaking to recognition and ownership of the integrity gap but perhaps from a different process or position. And so I assume we are all talking about what some say is our pure heart centre, alignment with our centre or core being, our higher selves (i.e., who we are at core), or what some call God or alignment with Source.

The perspective of ownership in individuation stresses lovingkindness a bit more and then equanimity...the perspective of ownership in non-individuation (for lack of a better term) stresses equanimity a bit more than lovingkindness. Both are necessary in their balance...though my non-scientific examination per my energy work reveals a mix that is heavier on lovingkindness is necessary to sustain individuated human existence (spiritual and physical), because first (apparently) we distribute the load and then we can carry more focused load. I think as we deepen and broaden our ability to energetically carry and manifest lovingkindness, however, we likewise deepen and broaden our ability to carry and manifest equanimity.

Who we are, who we truly are
For myself, likewise I can of course conceptualise and feel or resonate with my "higher self", with my centre, but I can also "see" who I am literally...and hear, etc., etc. This is, in fact, simply who I am...who I truly am. I use different terms purely in acknowledgement of the integrity gap and thus the gap in more fully realising our true selves.

The more clearly we ground and align our "waking lives" in each moment with who we are at core, the more clarity and strength we bring to our journey. The more authentically we manifest our "higher selves", in authentic love, in this and in all times and places. And...the more clearly we can "see", "hear", and otherwise know our "true selves" (for lack of better terms to reference the alignment and the becoming process), the more clearly the integrity gap will surface or reveal itself. (Put another way, though, I think it will be very difficult as a collective at this rudimentary point in our collective development, to articulate or actualise collective ownership without fully embracing ownership at the individuated level)

It seems to me we will constantly evolve and move to find our balance in focusing on our individuation and our interbeing and collectivity, whilst honouring all of these. Owning and honouring who we are at core and manifesting who we are (whilst growing and evolving), in our individuation and our interbeing...(or, simply allowing that person to BE in the waking world)...this is the greatest thing we can do for ourselves and for one another. Because in so doing, we are shining a lamp on our paths and on those of others.

Peace & blessings
7L