[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

I don't mean to come across as aggressive or dismissive, your points have lots of merit but it's a very "modern" look at it.

To me this view does a tremendous disservice to all of our female ancestors.

Women haven't been meek & mild throughout history until all of a sudden things began to change - it's about knowing your limitations.

There is a reason that the Lady Macbeth character resonates so well, women have had to be resourceful & cunning throughout time.

Go and tell Irish or Italian women of a few decades ago that they are "traded" by men.

The idea of mummy's boy & daddy's girl is universal - males saw the maternal benefit of their own up bringing & fathers wished for their girls to be treated like a princess. Obviously class & society has had an effect but essentially it's never been women in chains, whipped & used as sex/breeding machines.

I mean it will have happened but societies don't form under the banner of rape and pillage.

Our female ancestors had (for lack of a better term) lady balls.

Women knew that invaders & marauders meant that life was over so they will have actively encouraged strong sons & relatives.

We have a convoluted view of our own nature - maybe even over blown. From early "man" to modern day we are here because of both the males & the females of history's refusal to lay down & die.

The notion of the "witch hunt" is another under appreciated example of how much power has been accredited to women.

Women of the modern age have began to compare themselves to men - rights, equality etc etc yet if the men truly disrespected those women those things would never be granted.

Why would the dominant give away power?

Simply because despite the chest beating that goes on (it has been necessary to look big & tough) men cannot survive without women, even the Christian Church didn't have the power to stop the female vote.

Behind every great man is an even greater woman - perhaps more than one i.e mother, sister, grandmother all examples to him, in his ear, giving new life to siblings or offspring.

The species would have died out long ago if it were too stupid to recognise that women are equal - it may not say it in so many words from one culture to the next but it has done so within the family structure - it's had to.

The 1950's household with picket fences was NOT the "original" family blueprint - far from it.

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Knight, hello there and you're entitled to your opinion, absolutely.

But I thoroughly disagree that in seeing where we're at today means that I discredit women of the past. That's simply not true IMO. Acknowledging the flawed history and current reality does not take away from anyone's innate humanity nor their potential for growth and change. Nor for the potential for humanity as a collective to take positive, conscious choices.

Of course, regardless of their oppression, regardless of their limitations in status or freedoms, regardless whether historically penetrated without consideration of consent....etc... women are of course fully human. We are of course sentient and self-aware, regardless of how we've been treated or what we've endured. As I said, women are authentically equal in every way save physical size and strength. However, historically women have in fact been greatly unequal in terms of not only physical power. Historically, women have also been greatly unequal in terms of manifest political power, economic power, social and legal status, rights of full citizenship, and basic human freedoms and securities (like bodily security).

All of these manifest imbalances ultimately rest on the physical superiority of men's size and strength. Why? Because absent law and penalties (or regardless of them), men oppress other men through these same means and their same ultimate source. As you said, if it were the day after and no one cared about law or money...we're down to might makes right when the world is on men's terms.

Of course, women have always had their own mind and spirit and that goes without saying. I don't weigh the prestige or power of real or fictional queens or elites (LOL), nor any ethnic stereotypes, LOL. Women of all backgrounds have spirit and always have, for certain...but if the rights and freedoms and opportunities are not fundamentally available to all women, then it is not a meaningful consideration for me.

And yes, we certainly have been and are "that stupid", hahaha ....and if I were you I wouldn't put anything beneath humanity as a base floor, LOL. (As a teen I once had a religious manager at a fast food restaurant say he didn't believe in evolution b/c he didn't believe we ever went around beating on each other w/clubs...as I thought, well we beat on each other with clubs today all over, LOL...what is he smoking?)

However, likewise, nor would I limit our potential or our ceiling...as we (humanity) also have great possibility, as I've discussed. That doesn't mean the historic and current reality are not as I've described.

I could overwhelm you with a mountain of facts -- mostly gathered by male lawyers, policy makers, academics, and scientists, to their great credit -- but we already know of this reality. It is ours to this very day, and ours to guide as we see fit, resting only on our need to own our history as well as our future. Greatly flawed and terrible thus far in its dominance and violence...and yet still full of great hope and possibility, so long as we simply begin to turn toward alignment with our centre. Our heart centre.

Peace & blessings
7L