[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, we probably prefer thinking on individual levels, but I wanted to go under my thought, your thought, and all which is particular to me or you, and go toward the common aspects of our awareness and attention, and although I call these my awareness my attention, I also know other people have this precise same quality.

I think I understand now what your conveying more so.. When I read this its like I am not taking in your words but moving deeper into a level of mindful awareness to become it as the listener beyond thought?

Excellent, for this careful observation of the mind's thinking processes, and all that senses perceive is instrumental mindfulness. Then we might translate subsequent consideration of it as 'contemplation', I suppose, to 'mull over' carefully, as it were. Still realising that one is in knowing, and aware of the unfolding of said processes.

So do you mean moving from observation of my own processors "aware" into a more contemplative process of all that, meaning where that leads me further into my own process?..If you could expand this I might be able to see the part not "gelling" in your explanation.

For me, as I look into your space, I see my space, because of that quality which transcends individual personalities that make us unique to that universal quality we have in common. I keep in mind my subject of the thread as the fundamental basis for what we call 'mindfulness', and that is a tricky subject because we don't know what it is apart from its immediate presence, and it's necessary to know mindfulness from the point if its origin, which means we don't start sometime soon, later, but bring the attention here right now - which is to say, not so much to bring it here, but recognise where the attention actually is, which is of course, here now. If we see this 'knowing of the attention', we may be the one in knowing.

In reading this part, I see the nature of all things we can embody as a presence 'aware'.. It isn't about the act of you as the "doer" but the presence of knowing beyond the mind, that there is no doer (in this case, mindfulness) but the presence you become 'aware' of you being it 'aware' as a presence. When I actually contemplate myself in this way, I realize in the moment of those moments, all bounds fall away I hold in myself. So what is as it is, allows for that universal mindfulness to unfold naturally.

I have to be as that one even to speak of such a thing, and a reader who doesn't follow introspectively to notice what I'm referring to, but rather is figuring it out with intellect, can't possibly comprehend the implications, so you see, it only by being mindful in this way that mindfulness is 'known', and there is no other way of learning it. The example is, one can not 'figure out' where the attention exists; only immediately recognise it.

Yes I see. The experience is where you practice what you know. It is why I actually struggle in some of the Buddhist threads, because I can sense and feel through the subtle levels of engagement those who are not moving deeper into the experience of what they are creating threads about. The trap in this way is often if you are not "realized" and in process of realizing the creation your opening up, then the mind entertains itself and others through the intellect and knowing alone. So you have scenes where by.."This is what I know" and it bounces back and forth through the minds view. Not always but most often. So their is a shift as I see this to move into the practice of that enquiry opened, to actually move deeper into a more contemplative experience of your initial enquiry to become the presence aware of all things moving in yourself in the unfolding, more conscious and mindful of what is there in yourself as one engages. Of course on this side of things in myself, I can be a presence aware and be engaged all the same mindful of all that playing out. It supports me to move beyond those points of awareness, and not see them as limitations but a deepening into my own universal mindfulness aware of all life as it is.

Because the attention is really here we can look into this aspect of truthfulness where by it is impossible to return the attention, and if ardent about what is true, attention is immediately recognisible as being in this moment's immediacy.

It takes a great deal of introspective mindful practice to move in this way. I have a natural introspective nature so its much easy for me to move and go within when reading words to allow it all to wash over me and open me. Truthfulness is important all the same. If your not willing to face the nature of that mirror in front of you more complete as truth in yourself in the washing over of yourself, it can move you away from what is being shown in those immediate moments, so you lose the practice of foundational mindfulness as it can be as a shared engagement.

It's not an effort of so much work, because where the attention exists is completely obvious at a glance. Hence this practice of a meditation object and the effort to hold it in place is a surface aspect, and the mind wanders off, then you return it, but under that is a simple fact - this is where the attention exists. This isn't for me or you, but it's true of all, and hence I call it 'fundamental'.

True, where I am noticing is simply where I am. In this way I am more conscious of being present with what is. I do believe the meditation is the "training" of attention and focus and it becomes an initial process of discovering 'what lays under all that' (the experience of you in all this) In many ways, I see that meditation as you are describing here, is a means to clear the 'self' out of the way to open to an emptiness of presence, aware but without knowing, more being that. Which of course, in turn, allows one to listen more attentively and as a presence open to what is.

So we may examine this surface aspect, as the determination is made, I will focus on breath starting... now... yes the breath is present and doubtless and there is absolute certainty that this is the case. But what exactly is this breath in the experience. It isn't visible so the eye is unaware. It might have a smell to it, but to smell isn't how we know there is breath moving, it's usually quite light and soundless, so we only really know in any continuity it because it is felt as sensation in the body. This now becomes the feel level, which is primal to all the senses, because all senses work through the nervous system, which is the sense of sensations. Hence I say the feel level is most primal to experience.

Do we follow this, the investigation I make this account of? Because it is the only way to understand me, the only way I understand you, to 'turn the stone' as you put it, and discover the truth, that doubtlessness and certainty I am referring to as 'the knowing'.

Yes it is the only way to understand deeper the nature of others. AS I contemplate your words in my introspective way of listening, I only see and feel truthfulness arise in me, but this is only because we looking into this with a more conscious awareness of how engagement and understanding deeper can be as a shared awareness and experience, that we both know is beyond the mind and intellect. Being on the same page of how one 'enquires' makes life a little easier in regards to how to explore deeper the nature of yourself and life itself.

If we do follow with this introspective way of listening, rather than me being an external voice that knows a bunch of stuff you can learn, we may notice how this mode of introspection is 'finding out' - and we know things in that sense of certainty because we observe in the immediate moment - and there it's nature is revealed.

What comes to me reading this part is these lines from the song, 'Solid rock' Your standin on solid rock, Standin on sacred ground..

Now I spoke too long and possibly wasted breath, but my hope is that a reader will get a sense of 'what it is', this attention, and how use it for real lived discovery.