[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I have to be honest with you jonesboy that I hardly read your posts as I don't find them to have the practice i.e. experiential depth I personally like but I also don't mind either - this is after a Spiritual Forum, and not Buddhist forums and I think that you're a nice guy.

However since you keep putting yourself out there and offering transmissions (haha) I thought I would check in with you on lineage/authorization as that underpins the Buddhist traditions. So now you confirm that you have no Buddhist training or experience, it makes a lot of sense (aha!)

I go to a Buddhist temple close to my house often and have received empowerments from the Rinpoche.


Anyway Let's look at your posts showing how misinformed I am....

The Sutras are fundamental guides of practice in Buddhism - the Heart Sutra is representative of one of the highest practices and outcomes of the Bodhisattvas and all Buddhas; ditto Diamond Sutra. There are many Sutras in Buddhism - and when you say it is more about the "techniques", you are showing your lack of depth in that

I agree sutras are fundamental but you have to understand your audience now don't you?

Do you know you are talking to people that don't believe Tibetan Buddhism is Buddhist at all? How about the same people who believe that Buddhism is whatever you want it to be?

Even still, you can read about the Heart Sutra all day long and without the practices you would never achieve understanding of Emptiness.

Buddhism is about the practices, the realization, the sutra are there to help guide and show the way.

The famous saying "do not establish words and letters", attributed in this period to Bodhidharma,[44]


...was taken not as a denial of the recorded words of the Buddha or the doctrinal elaborations by learned monks, but as a warning to those who had become confused about the relationship between Buddhist teaching as a guide to the truth and mistook it for the truth itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen

Still not seeing how you disagree with my statement.

Zen practice does not "work with" Deities. And they are not Tibetan? This feels like talking to someone who has no background in Buddhism, but we can stay with the former statement. "Zen works with Deities" - no, Zen Buddhism does not "work with Deities". Zen Buddhism is primarily a practice of directly realizing Buddha nature, its major practices include chanting, zazen, koan practice, and Buddha nature. All beings are Buddha nature. Culturally, does it honor Buddha, honor this, honor Kuan Yin? Of course. Tibetan Buddhism does have practices including Medicine Buddha, Tara Practice etc so one could theoretically use the term "work with" in Tibetan.

Are you not familiar with Yidam deity practices in Tibetan Buddhism? Here maybe this will help.

The Vajra Master: from “Dakini Teachings” by Padmasambhava



Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which is more important, the master or the yidam deity?


The master replied: Do not regard the master and the yidam as different, because it is the master who introduces the yidam to you. By always venerating the master at the crown of your head you will be blessed and your obstacles will be cleared away. If you regard the master and yidam as being different in quality or importance you are holding misconceptions.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?


The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: When practicing a yidam deity, how should we meditate and practice in order to attain accomplishment?


The master replied: Since means and knowledge are to practice the spontaneously present body, speech and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, they will be accomplished no matter how you carry out the sadhana aspects endowed with body, speech, and mind. They will be accomplished when the sadhana and the recitation are practiced in a sufficient amount.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should we approach the sugata yidam deity?


The master replied: Realize that you and the yidam deity are not two and that there is no yidam deity apart from yourself. You approach the yidam deity when you realize that your nature is the state of nonarising dharmakaya.

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which yidam deity is better to practice, a peaceful or wrathful one?


The master replied: Since means and knowledge are practicing the spontaneously present body, speech, and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, all the countless sugatas, peaceful and wrathful, chief figures and retinues, manifest in accordance with those to be tamed in whatever way is necessary–as peaceful and wrathful, chief figures and retinues. But as they are all one taste in the state of dharmakaya, each person can practice whichever yidam he feels inclined toward.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: If we practice one yidam deity, will that be the same as practicing all sugatas?


The master replied: The body, speech, and mind of all deities are manifested by the three mayas in accordance with the perception of those to be tamed. In fact, no matter how they appear, if you practice one you will be practicing them all. If you accomplish one you will have accomplished them all.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Is there any fault in practicing one yidam deity and then practicing another?


The master replied: Although the sugatas manifest as various kinds of families and forms, out of skillful means to tame beings, they are in actuality inseparable, the state of equality. If you were able to practice all the buddhas with this realization of their inseparability, your merit would be most eminent. But if you were to do so while regarding the yidam deities as having different qualities which should be either accepted or rejected, you would be immeasurably obscured. It is inappropriate to regard the yidams as good or bad, and to accept or reject them. If you do not regard them like that, it will be excellent no matter how you practice.

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Through performing the approach to one tathagata, will we accomplish the mind of all sugatas?

The master replied: By practicing with a vast view and remaining in the nature, you will attain stability in a yidam deity. When you complete the recitation, you will accomplish the activities of all the victorious ones without exception by simply commencing them.



Lady Tsogyal asked the Master: If one’s view is high, is it permissible to dispense with the yidam deity?

The master replied: If you attain confidence in the correct view then that itself is the yidam deity. Do not regard the yidam deity as a form body. Once you realize the nature of dharmakaya you will have accomplished the yidam deity.

Also, Zen is not Tibetan :) Maybe you are confusing Tibetan with Mahayana?

is a school of Mahayana Buddhism that originated in China during the Tang dynasty as Chan Buddhism. Zen school was strongly influenced by Taoism and developed as a distinct school of Chinese Buddhism. From China, Chan Buddhism spread south to Vietnam, northeast to Korea and east to Japan, where it became known as Japanese Zen and known as Seon buddihism in Korea.

As far as Zen working with Divine Beings.. maybe looking into the details a little more will help you.

A practice in many Zen monasteries and centers is a daily liturgy service. Practitioners chant major sutras such as the Heart Sutra, chapter 25 of the Lotus Sutra (often called the "Avalokiteśvara Sutra"), Song of the Precious Mirror Samadhi, the Nīlakaṇṭha Dhāraṇī, and other minor mantras.

The butsudan is the altar in a monastery where offerings are made to the images of the Buddha or bodhisattvas. The same term is also used in Japanese homes for the altar where one prays to and communicates with deceased family members. As such, reciting liturgy in Zen can be seen as a means to connect with the Bodhisattvas of the past. Liturgy is often used during funerals, memorials, and other special events as means to invoke the aid of supernatural powers.

Chanting usually centers on major bodhisattvas like Avalokiteśvara (see Guanyin) and Manjushri. According to Mahayana Buddhism, bodhisattvas are beings who have taken vows to remain in saṃsāra to help all beings achieve liberation from it. Since the Zen practitioner's aim is to walk the bodhisattva path, chanting can be used as a means to connect with these beings and realize this ideal within oneself.

There is no hence here. The Bodhisattva vows stand on their own. They consist of a number of aspects:
Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them
Delusions are endless, I vow to end them
Dhamma gates are innumerable, I vow to wake to them
The Buddha Way is unsurpassed, I vow to embody it fully
As you can see, the Bodhisattva vows are widely encompassing and not just about helping others as we're not a blob, as you say, or infer uniqueness/separateness as causation.

If you had read my posts you would understand I was referring to the end state of advaita compared to that of Buddhism and Kashmir Shaivism.

I think you just read my post to quickly with the mindset of disagree without reading.

If you happen to find a few Googled words "energy" in a tradition, it does not mean that forms the core principle of that religion. To say Buddhism says "you are energy - you either realize it or you don't" is quite an inaccuracy in context, imo. Buddhism teaches Buddha nature - realization of Buddhahood, nibbana, cessation of dukkha, true nature, Dharma. It is not a flight of fancy about energy. Of course life consists of motion and well, life - without form and motion there is no consciousness! In the same way you can say without life there is no energy. But the above is not quite accurate when you try to represent a religion this way. I am sure you can find a quote here or there, but this is different. It is like me finding a quote in Christianity using that word 'energy', this is not to say that Christianity teaches you are energy and you either realize it or you don't. I doubt that is the core of Daoism and Hinduism either but I'll refrain from a conclusion on that (with the same notation about Googled words)

Are you familiar with what the Primordial State is, in Buddhism?

Here let me help you understand how energy plays a role in Buddhism.

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ght=primordial

Kashmir Shaivism would agree as would most Traditions.

Maybe you should google some more. It might help with some of the misunderstanding you are having.

Anyway this was an interesting little exercise... Please note it was really a very cursory review of some of your recent posts and took minimal time. I notice you are adept at googling words to back up whichever argument you are putting forward (we all love Google, I admit hehe, I also use it a lot so don't worry about it)

I kind of wish I hadn't read your posts in detail now It's kind of depressing to think these are the things dominating the Buddhist forum. I urge anyone interested in Buddhism to seek out Buddhist forums.

Cheerio, jonesboy. For the record, I have no interest in playing word or google games with you so I'll be leaving it here. I know what you know and don't know, and that's enough for me, if others want to follow you that's fine, but again I would just ask you to respectfully stop misrepresenting yourself as an expert in Buddhism because you are misleading people with eyes wide open (FWIW - of course do what you want though - we all do! hehe ).

Have a good day.

BT

I think we can agree that we both have a different depth of understanding not just what reality is made up of within Buddhism but what they practice as well.

It is always best to learn with an open mind than to disparage another with a closed one.

Give it a shot