[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

Why would you endeavour to change my mind at all?

Going by some of your statements on this thread, it seemed you held some misconceptions about the teachings of Buddhism, and I simply wanted to help you understand the teachings better. It wasn't about getting you to see it my way, but simply helping you to see the teachings with clarity, as you admitted to having little knowledge of them.

For example, your earlier statements about aversion, the Buddha's teachings being against using volition, abundance of frills and glitter and little of core value in the teachings, fabrications not being included in the suttas, etc. That's just on the second page of posts. Anyway, as I said, it's not just about me and you, it's about providing helpful information for everyone who reads this.

I'm totally in support of the relevant information which helps enable people to decide, but there is no misinformation, merely things that contradict your view. My view is contradicted as well, but I don't endeavour to change your mind.

I believe that some of the statements you have made, particularly the ones I have referred to above, are examples of misinformation. But I wasn't necessarily just referring to your statements when I spoke of misinformation.

I'm not invalidating the method. In fact you just refered to 'misinformation'. I'm merely discussing the observation technique and trying to put reasons why it is 'as it is'.

I understand. It appeared to me as if you were denying the validity of volitional meditation methods, especially in their ability to give rise to insight. Perhaps I misunderstood, my apologies for that.

If you regulate the breath you can not observe the spontaneously occuring breath

If you count the breath you cant observe to spontaneously arising mental activity.

If you visualise, you can not observe spontaneous mental activity.

That's why I don't apply volitionally concocted additions to my practice. I don't want to observe things I made up. I want to observe what is just happening.

I understand your point and agree. If your practice is just to observe what is happening, then volition should not be used, aside from the volition to observe.

I was under the impression that you were making the point that the method you use is the true way of practice, and the method and teachings I have been referring to are inaccurate. I do believe you implied this, for you made several statements that your experience contradicts the teachings and ideas I presented.

The sutta does not seem to say that one should intentionally breath long and intentionally breath short. It says I'm aware that this is a long breath, I'm aware that this s a short breath... I don't think "verbalising" that is a good idea because if one is verbalising that, they will not become aware of the noise that would otherwise be occuring in their minds.

You are right, it does not say to intentionally breathe long and short (although it doesn't say NOT to either). Actually, these are the only two steps out of the sixteen that volition is not specifically instructed to be used. As I explained, starting with step three, the practitioner is to TRAIN the mind, and this entails volition in moving towards the goal of the particular step (3-16). Anapanasati is much more than just passive observation, as is made clear in the Buddha's opening statement before giving the instructions.

Some practiced entirely need breath regulation or verbalisation or visualistation, but it isn't constructive in observation techniques because when the volition is enacted one can not observe what arises spontaneously and thus does not see 'what is'. In stead they see what intionally put there. This is no a discredit, it's a reason, and it's either makes sense of it's nonsense.

Yes. My point has been that the practice of Buddhism as a whole, and particularly Anapanasati, isn't just about seeing what arises spontaneously. It's also about observing the effects of our intentions and actions, whether in meditation or during daily life, and gaining the insight from this to choose those that lead towards the purification of mind.