when nothing does not change
 

Hi, this is my first post. I may not need to post another. I am a taoist. Not because I sought it out, but because I already understood most its principles so when i learned about it, i realized, "ahhh this is the word for the things i already know" Let me star by saying, I also am a Taoist at heart. I have studied much Taoist thought over several years. I also have been caught in the trap of "not doing" and then realized that I was not completely understanding the wisdom in the concept. Let's see if I may be able to help.

so a little about me. In saying this I am opening up and being vulnerable. This is a good thing

the dilemma is my situation. You are correct, it is YOUR situation, thus no one can fix it but you. You hold Tao in the palm of your hand, you are the Tao and Tao is you.

I am 49. I live alone, never married, no kids, i have no friends, no family, no income(i am on a VERY small pension) I am unable to work certain jobs for health reasons, and what i have done before, I hated, or learned that ego is what drove me. I have no real fulfilling path in life. and its painful, i accept it being painful but it still is. Ego cannot drive us because ego is an illusion, its an idea/thought of who we think we are, a pseudo identity, thus there is nothing to prevent us from doing what we enjoy.


The tao suggests, that I do NOTHING. literally. so I am doing by not doing for the first time in my life i am just being. Tao does not suggest doing nothing literally, what its saying is to do or do not, do not over do what does not need to be done, do not contend with yourself over what you "should" or "shouldn't do", do not be conflicted with yourself, just flow with the Way of life, flow with Tao not against it. Drop the doer part and get lost in the doing, in the enjoyment of doing what you're doing. In other words, loose yourself in whatever you're doing. Obviously we must do things in life so we cannot do nothing literally. Like the Tao state; "Do your work (its obviously telling us to do something) and then step back, the only path to serenity"

I could DO something, IF I knew what that thing is that would fulfill me, but thats the problem. I do not know yet. There is but one way to find out what that thing is that will fulfill us, and that is to continue to do things. Actually fulfillment is in the doing, in the journey of doing things, in participation with Tao/Life. When we resist Tao/life then we are unfulfilled. Drop the resistance and begin doing things. And actually to do things is to drop resistance, to not do thing s is resistance, thus all one need do is begin to do things and resistance drops away automatically.
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So, Its checkmate- I know that I must do no-thing, yet I desire to do something, but that something is ego driven and because i know this- I do not want to do anything (yet). this state i am in is NOT fulfilling. it is empty. It is not checkmate yet, unless you say it is, thus if you believe its checkmate then for you it shall be, as you are creating your own reality. This is how powerful you are! Remember, Tao is you and you are Tao.

So what now? live a life of doing nothing? which seems now almost less fulfilling than when i lived with ego. I guess my worry is, nothing will be the only things that ever happens. You life is what you make of it, what do YOU want?" Then go and do it, and drop all this ego/desire/checkmate stuff, just drop it and go enjoy your life.

all things change, but thats not entirely true, a mans spine cannot be repaired. or a person cannot grow taller. some people never marry. some never find thier true path. You are correct in this statement, so now what? What do YOU want to do with your life?

but what is there to do now? I desire nothing. Above you said "yet I desire to do something" now here you said; "I desire nothing" so which is it? Do you see the conflict here? It seems from your post that you do desire and there is nothing wrong with that, so what's the problem?

I want to desire.
so i can have a fulfilling journey doing something I love, not something based on ego. but I have no insight as to what it might be. You do desire, we cannot help it, its the way we're wired. Some people try not to desire, which is the desire to not desire, hence we cannot get out of desire. So, just begin doing what makes you feel good inside, there must be something. Cooking, coloring, writing, speaking, playing games, music, pets, reading, watching your favorite movies, and on and on and on it goes, this world has so much to offer, boredom is a choice.

and Ive been trying for years to find it. but to no avail. its so confusing and painful. I accept it, but it does not make it any easier. I wonder if maybe there just is nothing for me and this is a good as it gets, why does only nothing keep happening? Pain is the result of repression, of resistance, if you truly accepted it there would not be pain, so perhaps you do not accept it and rightfully so in my opinion, so why not use the pain as a catalyst to move beyond it. In other words, instead of just accepting it and saying there is nothing for me, go out and do something, stop trying to "figure out the perfect thing to do" and just go do what you like to do. Drop the whole ego thing, drop all limitations, drop worrying about if its right or wrong and go do something. As long as its not harmful to you or anyone else of course, but I think you know what I mean.

Here is an article about the concept of not doing. I hope you enjoy it.

Wuwei or non-doing is not just about doing nothing

wuwei
Wuwei is a Chinese word, written as 无为in simplified Chinese, and 無為 in traditional Chinese.

It is a key concept of Taoism, and the central theme of Lao Tzu’s Tao Te Ching. Not knowing its true meaning risk missing the wisdom.

The word may be literally translated as ‘doing nothing’, or ‘non-doing’. “The Tao does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone” is one of the well known phrases in the book.

Many people intuitively interpret ‘doing nothing’ as something passive, laid back or negative. This is not wrong as far as the literal meaning of the word is concerned. In the context of Tao, however, it misses something really fundamental.

In the eyes of Tao, if no action is needed based on the laws of nature, doing anything is overdoing. The action however insignificant can do you more harm than good.

For example, if you are growing a plant, having given it the right conditions from the sunlight and the fertilizer to the water, leave it alone! This is the best way to ensure the growth of the plant.

In this instance, doing nothing is doing something.

This is wuwei, or non-doing.

Wuwei does not always involve doing ‘nothing’. Just like growing a plant. You do not do absolutely nothing. Watering the plant, for instance, is doing something. The key point is you should not water too much or too little. Doing it just right! In this case, without excessive or wasted effort is practicing the art of non-doing.

It applies to everything we do if life. If we can let nature take its course, things get done. If we go against it, little — or nothing — gets done, no matter how hard we try.

Doing nothing or doing less, however, is not as easy as it sounds. Those who have tried meditation would probably have experienced the challenge of sitting still and thinking about nothing. Many people simply cannot do that. This happens to other aspects of life as well. Many problems we face often arise because we tend to do too much, rather than do too little. We tend to eat too much, talk too much, worry too much or interfere too much.

How to do less — or not to do something — is an art. It is often an arduous challenge.

Mastering the art of non-doing would enable us to get more things done in life, without putting in more effort.

thank you!
 

Within Silence;
thank you for answering it means a lot to me.
I dont really know much, especially outside my own experience. i dont profess to be any kind of master in taoism, only that I thought i understood it, now it seems i am utterly lost...its kind of funny actually.

The bottom line is I dont know what I want. thats the issue!

pls accept my apologies for some of my contradictions. i am as i said...confused.

so maybe your message is to just stop thinking, not worry about anything(difficult), and just allow.
yes I understood that aspect of it. could just be as simple as me thinking too much? pure acceptance?...just living life without the judgements?


here is what started all this

I play cello. after reading the below article recently, I asked myself- if i was the last person on earth, would i still pick it up and play just for enjoyment? the answer is no. I probably wouldn't play.

I just dont enjoy it enough to do, if there was no goal i.e. playing beautifully to another person. I keep hearing all these pro's talk about, how the best times are when they are alone with thier instrument. enjoying it. But I dont feel that way. I think somehow i should feel that way. (yes the tao is individual).but my best feelings come from playing beautifully, constantly getting better. because then the better I am at expressing myself.


i play cello i suppose, because I want to be patted on the head and told I make beautiful music. if no one was around to do that, why play? thus by the below article, its egotistical. can ego be good?

but does not the tao teach that we should let go of ego? and if i play music not for myself but for the wrong reasons such as glory or for musical standing, is this not ego attachment? and the only way to solve this is to not play(wu wei)?

pls bear with me as this all started from an article. see article below.


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Why do you want to be a musician? To get attention? To attract girls (or boys)? To be rich and famous? If your answer was one of these or something similar, this article is just what you need!

All of these common reasons for wanting to be a musician are EGO ORIENTED. Your ego is a demanding slave driver which is never satisfied. It constantly pushes you to do more, be more, achieve more. In the eyes of your EGO, you are NEVER good enough and what's more, you are never GOING TO BE good enough. What a painful and wasteful way to live!

Your ego tells you that you must be able to play faster scales, more complicated drum beats, more impressive songs than anyone else. You must gather more and more attention for your amazing technical abilities. The more you pursue the satisfaction of your ego, the more it will elude you. That is the nature of this EGO BEAST. If you want to be a musician, turn your attention AWAY FROM YOURSELF and concentrate your focus on the MUSIC.

The Tao of Music 3 says: Become a servant to the magnificent creative power that is MUSIC. By putting the music before your ego, you will naturally attract everything that you need to become a musician--EXACTLY at the moment that you need it and are capable of handling it! The appropriate exercises, lessons, even the perfect teacher will come your way. Your only job is to appreciate these things as they come and take joy in putting them to use.

I can't begin to tell you how many students, both on and off line, have expressed concern with overwhelming "stage fright"--performance anxiety. What are the thoughts that go through your mind before a performance? Do they go something like: What if I mess up? What will people think of ME? Everyone will be looking at ME!
Can you see that these are all ego concerns? I can tell you from years of performing experience that if you concentrate on yourself, you are going to be nervous. No one is comfortable at the thought of being judged by a crowd. If, however, you immerse yourself in the MUSIC, become one with it, concentrate ONLY on it, your performance anxiety will fall by the wayside. Let the music play YOU!

Become a servant to the magnificent creative power that is MUSIC. By putting the music before your ego, you will naturally attract everything that you need to become a musician--EXACTLY at the moment that you need it and are capable of handling it!

Above all--do NOT brag about your playing or continually try to convince yourself and others how great and knowledgeable you are! There is an INVERSE relationship between self-aggrandizement and true musicianship.

It goes like this: The great ones never brag and the ones who brag are never great! Start observing as you interact with others who play music--you will be amazed at the truth of this axiom.

In summary, the Tao of Music3 says: if you are to become a musician, you must serve the MUSIC and not YOURSELF. Stop keeping score of your ego-driven accomplishments and start doing your very best to honor and celebrate the great creative force of music--IT has chosen YOU!

I think that ego can be good in certain instances, and very necessary at times, for does it not drive us to become more proficient at our craft?And perhaps in the beginning we are doing it to impress, or to get applause, to try to "out do" the other guy, but eventually these immature thoughts wear off and we come to fall in love with our craft, and we get enjoyment out of others getting enjoyment out of it. Is this wrong? I do not think so, its the Way life is, Its the Way we are and there is nothing wrong with it. Is it wrong to want to perfect your craft? I see not how this is wrong. Is it wrong to want to play beautiful music for people, no way, in fact I think if one has this talent that it would be a shame to not use it for others enjoyment.

From your comments I do not see ego, you know why? Because if you were ego driven you wouldn't even entertain the idea of stopping your craft to do what you believe is right. Do you see how un-egoic your actions are, that you are distraught over trying to do what you believe is right, this is not egoic my friend but the exact opposite. The fact that you enjoy playing beautiful music for others is also not egoic but normal, natural human kindness as I see it. And if people applaud your efforts, your talents is this wrong? No way! You're sharing your craft/talents and they're sharing their appreciation, how is this egoic?

I don't put much stock into others opinions, especially those that aim to limit, to judge, and while that article has some good points, perhaps the way its worded it comes off so concretely judgmental (don't do this, don't do that) and it seems the author is aiming for perfection yet isn't this egoic too!!! LOL. Thus I would throw that article in the trash, forget about it, grab my cello and play my heart out for others to enjoy. You are safe in the Tao, you are free in the Tao, do what you enjoy, bring your enjoyment and talents to others to enjoy, life is a celebration, not a problem to be solved.

An example of an egoic person would be one who makes fun of others who maybe are not as experienced or proficient at their craft, while the un-egoic person goes over and tries to help them. And even if I was the egoic person, eventually I will learn my lesson and I can change, it doesn't mean I have to give up my craft, but rather just refine my character. A good friend once told me when I was suffering from the need to be perfect; "Its progress not perfection, take your time."

Hello, just thought I would put my two cents in on you post. My feelings on this is.. Your at this "nothing" point for a reason. This is my belief or opinion ...your guides or angels has opened up this opportunity for you for a reason. Things like this doesn't happen by chance. And I say this because I have been there, where you are..well close... I laid down a 20 year career , not due to my health, but because my two year old granddaughter came to live with me due to her parents could not take care of her. My salary was the high salary in our house so now we live in only one. But, I thought , all these years I have dreamed of sleeping late and doing what I wanted all day long then when it happened it was like I was cute off from the world. I wondered why my journey had lead me here. Other than to raise my beautiful granddaughter. It was hard to let go because who I was just changed. I went from being a professional to a full time stay at home grandmother. I thought I had already let go of my ego until that moment, but I had not. The ego is like a ball. When it's on the bottom , it's not seen but is still there. You don't realize this until the ball is kick out from under you. This is when the "nothing" comes in at. Now, my nothing is something. It is my spirituality. I was lead to this path to develop more spirituality. I now have time to devote to my gifts, no shopping sprees anymore , but now that I finally made it to nothing, no money, socializing, people chatter (I'm an Empath) and I have the best teacher in the world teaching me "love" again. Looking at the world as a child again has taught me much about the world that I had forgotten. So see, your nothing is something. Kick that ball and let your soul shine. Ok. I'm finished. Just my thoughts.

I am no Tao expert but I am pretty sure doing no-thing is very different than doing nothing.

I am not so sure you do understand. The suggestion to do nothing is not to be inert. I take it to mean one should simply be and allow action to come from being not from doing. In other words, express your inner being (true nature) directly not what your mind, ego, emotions, memories, social conventions, society, or other people indicate you might do.

If you want some examples, look at your bodily functions. Most of the time your heart beats and you breathe without any 'doing', it just happens. It is very possible to do interact with others and even perform tasks without 'doing'.

Thank you Brother!...Its good to listen to anothers thoughts when ones own wander. I wish great peace to you! again it meant a lot to get feedback.

Thank you Warrioress. I enjoyed your thoughts. and I also deeply appreciate your taking the time to express your thoughts on this. it really does help to know I am not alone and that we all are on the same journey. I am a warrior too, as implied by your name. I am a peaceful warrior. as I am sure you are. Children are some of our greatest teachers. So I listen to children.
I am on the same page as you regarding everything happens for a reason. On top of all of the things going on right now I just lost my (only) friend of four years to a betrayal on her part. Something I never expected. its been two weeks and I am feeling better but it has been painful and an impetus for growth. But it needed to happen. It did happen for a reason. in my life I have observed three stages to this understanding of purpose. I did not take these from a book. this is my own process. and defined in my words.

stage 1. faith. I have faith, yet do not believe entirely, there is purpose to my life.

stage 2. is belief. I believe that there is purpose to all that takes place in my life.

and finally 3. the knowing stage. I KNOW things happen for a reason.

I am not saying everyone's stages are the same, just that this is a truth in my life. and I agree when you say all things have a reason.
I want to thank you for reminding me of this.

I do believe in guides. despite the atheist aspect of the tao, I am more gnostic. but have not defined that yet. just that there is something bigger than me. Although I am light skinned I am part Native and part Irish. I was given my totems at a young age, and my high "Dodem" is Dolphin. They are my pods. I round out my taoist beliefs with my native ones. I do sometimes pray to a creator. Anyway thank you for your time in response to my need to connect.
Great Peace!
Doug

Wstein- spoken like a true taoist! I understand all of what you said. Sometimes I believe that doing nothing is appropriate. but everything in what you said reminds me of the way. I truly appreciate your response. I have observed for me, that the paths all have common threads. it doesnt matter if we are Christian Gnostics, Jainists, Taoists, Jedi Knights or Wiccan etc. there are universal truths which run throughout all of the paths as shown in what you wrote.

I did confuse nothing with no-thing. I am more clear on that today.

Music and martial arts in themselves are paths too. As has been said we all walk a path, all those paths are different but lead to the same mountain top!
Today, because of peoples input, I have moved on from this issue. I respect and honour your time to help me on this issue. We are in agreement.
Great Peace!

Find that still centre within yourself and manifest it through outward expression and only then you will know.

Your life is exactly like mine, yet I am 3 years older than you. That's the only difference.

For years I sat doing nothing because well...the Tao said it was good for me to do...but Tao gets boring and lonely after a while too doesn't it? so it's not really Tao then.

In accordance with this, you must also realise the desire to be desireless is also a desire - one of the very last ones to go, in fact.

You can only 'be' for so long in your own awareness of being, until the pull of 'being something else' becomes too great...but then you're no longer 'being' are you? but then again, were you ever 'being' to start with?

It's still going to be 'chop wood, carry water' whichever way you look at it, but the whole before and after focus is different...perspective changes and you start to see things in a different way....from a different viewpoint.

Can 'no Way' be 'the 'Way'? of course!...every Way is a Way, with full knowing-awareness...but how you choose to live the Way is totally up to you....may as well have some fun while you're at it.

Others have covered this, but just to point out a few things, the concepts behind Taoism greatly predate the concepts behind "ego" and therefore one should probably take that into account when trying to understand the Way.

Now remove yourself from the concept of ego entirely. Are you happy playing the cello in front of others? Does it come naturally too you? If so, then why do you question it? The Tao is the natural order of the universe, what drives you to follow it is entirely irrelevant.

But the questions you have will remain. You are probably not 'entirely' happy playing the cello only for people, or else you never would have questioned it to begin with.
Using Within Silence's metaphor, one does not simply wish to keep watering the plant to make it grow. One wishes to find the plant's true home so that it grows entirely on its own without assistance. So that it has all that it needs to flourish for the rest of its life.
That is wu-wei. Action through inaction. The finding of the Way.

You are seeking that path now? So I will tell you how to find it.
To bring 'ego' back into this, you should follow your ego, if it brings you more fulfillment than anything else, because it has led you here and you have already grown. Following this path leads you to question it. Questioning this path leads you to finding your true place in the Way. Thus, if you wish to find that path you are merely to continue this path until it naturally comes to a conclusion. This is wu wei.
And if something else, even doing nothing at all, brings you more fulfillment than your ego, then simply follow that path instead.
Ultimately, do what you think is best, but not by forcing them to be best, but simply by choosing what is truly best.

One more thing.
One thing that Taoism tries to negate is the concept of good and bad, right and wrong. All things change and they flow from one to another, and this is the natural order of things. Without the light there is only darkness, but without darkness there is only light. Both will blind you.
As such, sometimes doing what is truly right is not that which makes you happy, as well as that which makes you happy is not always what is right. One must achieve balance. Balance is the natural order.

Excellent explanation IAmNemo! Very nicely worded and easy to understand, which I can get too complicated with at times.
Spot on as I see it! :)

There is no need or cause to fill any vacuum. what is it that you really want? Seems to me you think there is some 'purpose' to your life and you are expecting that to be revealed. Clearly that would be in opposition to doing no-thing or nothing.

I am working on not-doing. It comes from 'just being who you are'. Rather than doing stuff to accomplish things, simply observe that things are a certain way even if that is not the way they are 'now'. If you are expecting things to change because you said something, that won't happen. By stating observations without trying or wanting to change anything, what you observe is the way it is now. Note that it doesn't 'change', it is just not the way it was. Basically its the same as having miracles happen. This is more or less the 'externalization' of doing no-thing.

As a side note, its really appalling how tied we are to cause and effect. Its so hard to observe things a different way than they are 'now', without referring to a change from the old to the new. Language assumes cause and effect, and so makes it even harder to state an observation without reference to it.

Yes, language is the necessary evil for us humans, for, most of our "problems" are caused by words, which are the very same "things" we use to try and solve our problems with. And so we get stuck in this viscous cycle of words, the trap of mind, using words in an attempt to solve words, which is like trying to put a fire out using gasoline. And so, we try to help people, even ourselves and what do we use...words, words words! To solve a problem, which is really an imbalance, we must apply an opposite, and thus return what is imbalance to a balanced state. If words are the problem, then what is the solution? What are words but abstractions of reality, in fact, words take us away from actuality, from what is in fact beyond description, beyond words, what is..wordless. Hence, it is silence which reveals truth, in silence we can hear Tao speak clearly, silence is an impartial teacher, which teaches without saying a thing, as it reveals truth which at the same time dispels illusions. Silent observation is the greatest source of wisdom.

At some point we must find a silent location, preferably without any distraction, without sounds, without light even (I sat in my closet and put sheets over the door to block out all the light) so that there is nothing to see and nothing to hear, so there is no-thing for mind to "do", and just sit there meditating, not chanting, not thinking, "not doing", not trying to achieve anything, no intention, no nada, just let yourself go completely, and eventually all the energy that is spent on seeing, hearing, inner dialogue, thinking, labeling, judging, etc. will be right with you, eventually ones observation will be wordless, silent, just be-ing, one will see through the veil of words, the limitations of words, and it will have itself a great giant belly laugh at having been so spellbound, so enchanted by mere words, which ultimately have no absolute reality whatsoever. This process of "sitting & forgetting" is called "letting your mud settle" like muddy water when left alone (not disturbed) all the mud/thoughts/words eventually settle out of it, and the water/mind returns to its natural pure and clear state. Upon this real-eyes-ation, one sees clearly that all the problems its had, are between its ears, in the form of words. And I am not talking physical problems but psychological, the ones we create in mind.

Thus the teaching; "From the bathtub (birth) to the bathtub (death), I have said much nonsense"

In order for the cup/mind which is overflowing to be returned to its original natural state, to its original capacity it must be emptied, for, when is a cup/mind at its most highest capacity to receive new insights? when it is empty. Empty yourself of all words/thoughts, empty yourself of all concepts, and just be.

Verse 16 -Tao Te Ching by Stephen Mitchell

Empty your mind of all thoughts.
Let your heart be at peace.
Watch the turmoil of beings,
but contemplate their return.

Each separate being in the universe
returns to the common source.
Returning to the source is serenity.

If you don't realize the source,
you stumble in confusion and sorrow.
When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.
Immersed in the wonder of the Tao,
you can deal with whatever life brings you,
and when death comes, you are ready.

A light bulb just went on- clearly I have misunderstood wu wei. SO basically this is really not anything new. its no formula, for "getting" its just a state of mind. It doesnt solve the problem because there was none, except we created it. by overanalyzing. which is the bane of my existance.
It seems to be what we would call simplicity here in the west re-worded as the way. literally its just a personal path, a journey?...the way then is what I choose it to be with no regrets, that sums it up.?

Thats why he also states- The way that can be spoken is not the way!..first verse. ok, its pretty simple, its not miraculous. its not going to solve my issues. other than its just acceptance of what is. its that simple. I choose my path, the message seems to be dont "overanalyze". let go etc. we have the same thing in my culture, simplicity. the heart. so basically its almost a political treatise on not adhering to others ideas thoughts, manipulations etc. which I have always avoided anyway. i was probably doing the way, then tried to over think it. still does not solve my issue, it just lessens the impact.?

ugh see im doing it again...(laugh).

I dont meditate. what I do is listen to nature. we actually call it the sacred silence. I am fortunate to have been born in a great place where water is everywhere, in fact I hold the water in my area to be sacred because it is what has taught me, given me peace, ad also commanded great insight and knowedge from. I live on the shores of the Great Lake, Huron. Its waters are crystal clear. I should mention I am half anishaanabe(ojibwe) and half irish. But I have only known the culture here, and water is sacred, because it teaches us to breathe, to just exist. I guess maybe thats why I like the Tao, because we have almost the same symbology, we use a circle with red(to represent the male aspect), and blue (to represent the divine feminine) these are represented as the Thunderbird(red) and the water panther(blue). Both living in separate elements. yet balanced perfectly. Btw not many of my own people know these teachings of the tao in native american understanding. but its is a universal theme. I should post this symbol for you to see. When I first saw it, I was blown away, but it is so perfectly clear. balance. I understood then that there was no difference in the teachings here as from the far east, this is why I identify as taoist, because trying to explain to someone the concept (words again) to another, is difficult, and confusing for them. it must be understood intuitively.

That ^^^was beautifully said confusionsay. And you're correct, its not miraculous, its radically simple, which is what makes it seemingly so difficult. ha ha. Just the unconditional acceptance of "what is"

"what I do is listen to nature. we actually call it the sacred silence"
I like that, I didn't choose the name "Within Silence" for no reason. :) I thought it sounded better than calling myself "Without Sound" ha ha

Nice talking with you confusionsay.

Peace
WS

When nothing does not change
 

Confusionsay,

I like the play on the words "Confucius says" with your name. A hearty welcome to the forum, with such an excellent post!

Allow me to provide some perspectives which may help resolve the dilemma you've described as "...I wonder if maybe there just is nothing for me and this is a good as it gets, why does only nothing keep happening?"

Nothing does not change....because nothing cannot change....

....if one understands that Tao is no-thing to be changed. Why?

Because if you've recognized that "ahhh this is the word for the things i already know"....it is a short leap to understand that this is also the word to connote the "thing" you already are...Tao.

As expanded in the 1st reference, consider that all the "things" you want to do, and all the "things" you want to be, and all the "things" you want to have...as mentioned in your post are essentially ALL ONE THING: Tao.

Doing without doing is accomplished because Tao, and only Tao, is all there is to do or to be anything. There is no “you” or any “activity” besides Tao to do or to be or to change or to perceive.

While you believe your name is (fill in the blank), as Tao, you have no name (not even “Tao” is your name)!

Consider also this perspective to answer your question above about "is there nothing for you".

As expanded in the 2nd reference: There is nothing for you, because there is only everything as you.

If Tao is the essence of you and all of Creation (including "what you desire"), then it is not desire that causes pain. The pain is caused by mistakenly perceiving that "what you desire" is somehow separate from you and that you are separate from "what you desire"....because you have forgotten that you are already, always what IT eternally is AS Itself.

It is Tao, and only Tao, whose slightest movement...animates our very Being, as Itself, and as the "object of our "desire".

Hope this, and the references below, helps you see that:

All is Tao being Itself, by Itself, as Itself….including the experience of you reading this to yourself.

Do you see ??

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...61&postcount=1

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...32&postcount=4

Simplification always sounds so... Simple, but for humans it seems to usually be the most difficult thing in the world. Especially within modern societies. More "primitive" societies seem to have a better understanding of simplification. This makes sense given all of these we know about have been given the opportunity to 'advance', Yet they choose not to.

Of course, that isn't to suggest they have no problems. Life is life. No one is always happy. A human being can find happiness or unhappiness in any place or time.

I think what is most important for you to find right now is what it is that is exactly your 'problem' and what it is exactly that you want.

If you wish to flow like the water then you must understand why your own waters are not flowing. Then make a decision for where you want them to flow. Or better yet, to understand why they stopped in the first place, to fix that problem, and to naturally allow them to move again wherever they choose.

Although, understand that the Way does not require you to flow anywhere precisely. A pond settled in to the world is just as valuable as a stream or river or an ocean. The waters in the pond itself still flow around the fish. They still flow into the ground and are still filled by the rains. The pond does not do any of this work on its own, the fish and the ground and the rains do this work, but the pond still moves. Action through inaction.

If you are 'over analyzing' your situation, then you already know what must be done. What then stops you from doing it? Sometimes we confuse over analyzing something with analyzing in the wrong way. If you believe a fish is a monkey, then you might constantly wonder how the monkey swims for so long.

In the Zhuangzi, there is a story of a farmer and a man. The farmer waters his fields by hand, from a stream nearby. He has to carry water in a pot from the stream to his fields, one pot at a time.
One day a man comes by and he tells the farmer there is an invention that can pump the water from the stream to his fields so that he does not have to carry the water anymore and will farm with little work. This man believed that doing less work for more gain is best.
The farmer then laughs at the man and tells him that to do this would not be the Way. He explains that by trying to uncomplicate the matter he is losing sight of the pure simplicity of it and in fact only complicating it instead.

This story is used to explain that the Tao doesn't need to be complicated, nor does it always make everything easier on humanity. That sometimes there are simply just ways of living that are understood and accepted by those living them. They are living in The Tao because they do not feel the need to make their lives 'easier'. They simply do what they know and love to do. And that sometimes our technologies and craftiness gets in the way of our understanding.

So, what is it that you love to do? Simplify your life by not just doing what is easiest or what you think will lead you to where you want to be the fastest. Pursue what seems to be the most natural route and you will arrive where you need to be. A river does not arrive faster by moving stones into its way. It arrives at its own pace and not a moment sooner.

I can not speak to 'wu wei'.

More or less I would guess. I think of it as an unlearning of a false premise. As far as I can tell this 'problem' state of mind is an artifact of experience as a finite being. You come into the world all needy and utterly dependent. It seems like things need to be 'done' for you. As you grow up you naturally take over responsibility of doing those things for yourself.

This 'forgetting' your true nature when you incarnate is really annoying, though probably needed for at first as it can be hard to focus on this life if you are remembering so many others. FYI the Book and TV mini-series 'Children of Dune' looks at that issue.

A fine point, the word 'choose' contains cause and effect. More accurately it is as you observe (experience) it to be.

Definitely no regrets.

This idea of 'choosing' is Western baggage. Imagine you are fully realized and everything is as you would have it be. What would you need to choose? Choice is for those who wish to change something.

Hi Wstein, I hope your day is well...:smile:

I should clarify, that when I talk of choice, i am talking of understanding, "movement" from one understanding to the next. In that sense we choose an attitude.

I believe we have some choice. I.e. what we want to eat for lunch or, if we are going to go to work today etc.

its interesting to discuss free will and taoism. I dont know enough about "the way" to know if free will exists or if it is an illusion of choice.

I suspect there is balance, in that we have personal choice, and in others there is nothing to do, i.e. wu wei.

I do wish to change something. Im not sure if that disqualifies me as a taoist, but it is just honesty.
I wish to have a path. Something that I can get out of bed in the morning and enjoy doing...I accept my life as it is now. but this is I hope, only temporary. My personal true nature is to balance life by living(being) and doing. If I desire to find my path it becomes necessary for me to make a choice about this path since as you mentioned we forget our true nature when we are born and its certainly annoying!:mad:
But I am also accepting of this too as best I can. The whole problem is , what to choose. this Is why i have been doing nothing. in order to contemplate my true nature, and see what my path will be, if there is one. I cant help but fear there may not be one. I want to marry, but that seems unlikely. I want to have purpose. that too seems unlikely right now. I have no friends, and it is unlikely I will find friends. all this is part of my "way" which I am not sure if I chose or whether it is destiny or even fate. I accept it. it doesnt mean i have to like my circumstances.
great peace!

Guthrio, a warm hearted thank you for your welcoming post.

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, i wanted to take in everything you said.
I think you put it very well in all you said.. Better than I could have.

Yes I believe I understand. My way is my way. there is nothing else.
just being me, is all that can be done. So then the next step would be , who am I? What do i want etc. . I am exploring these fundamental things. by just literally not doing right now. It is necessary for me to find a path. I am Doing this path as it is appropriate in the moment and my circumstances.

I would be lying if I said I did not desire to have a different path than to just do nothing day in day out.

I know there is something greater than this. But even just posting things on this site is living my "way" sharing my knowledge. Giving to others by offering my truth to them etc. is something.

It is maybe not ideal. But its a start. gotta start somewhere. :biggrin:


I need a path to employ what Ive learned. to challenge myself, to help others, and to wake up in the morning with purpose. thats the simplicity of my problem. I get what my purpose is, but what is my lifes work, my path? make sense? the question was rhetorical though, since no one can answer it but me. :wink:

great peace!

Confusionsay,

I very much appreciate your passion.....but most especially the frustration implicit in your words:

I would be lying if I said I did not desire to have a different path than to just do nothing day in day out. I know there is something greater than this. But even just posting things on this site is living my "way" sharing my knowledge. Giving to others by offering my truth to them etc. is something. It is maybe not ideal. But its a start. gotta start somewhere. :biggrin:

Your words inspire me to suggest that it may be the last words I highlighted above from your post, which could prove to be both "path" and "answer" concurrently: But its a start. gotta start somewhere.

Considering that all paths you can travel as being Tao Itself, you do understand that all those "paths" to anywhere else must logically include, and be connected to, the physical, mental, Spiritual "place" you are right now, right?

....but more importantly, connected to ALL the "experiential place(s)" you're telling yourself you need to be.....not in some future....but NOW.

How ?

As stated in the 1st reference: ...you don't have to create the reality you desire, because it already exists - among the infinite probable realities all simultaneously co-existing. All you have to do is make yourself an effective "antenna", so that by similarity of vibrations, you can receive that reality. And this makes it physiologically "real" for you.

How can this possibly be ?

I am reminded of how bacteriologist Alexander Fleming "accidentally" discovered penicillin, after what initially looked at first glance like a frustratingly spoiled experiment, that is until Fleming looked closely at it under his microscope. And the rest is history (as described in the 2nd reference). Moral: the answer is "blowing in the wind", right where you are.

Why is any of this relevant to your path, if at all ?

At the very moment where the answer(s) you seek transition from being rhetorical to being the actual point where you discover that, because you are Tao, Itself, your true nature lives, as perfect as an unwritten number, everywhere at once across space and time....

....you may also discover WHY "you must begin by knowing that you have already arrived."...(from one of my favorite quotes in the 3rd reference).

Why could this help you find your path? By enabling you to realize that EVEN WHERE YOU ARE, in what you call "maybe not ideal" circumstances, the answers you seem to think are unavailable to you....ARE RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE.

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.
Dr. Wayne Dyer

Who knows? Your very path may lead you to find a long-sought "cure" for the spiritual "malaise" that has infected humankind for as long as we've been suffering under its effects.

....just by being Who and where you are....your way!

And Brother, wouldn't that give you a :biggrin: ?

I hope so....:smile:

Reference: http://iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/#Blueprint

Reference: http://www.wisegeek.org/how-was-peni...-developed.htm

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...2&postcount=75

JLS!
 

Guthrio-
Of the infinite possible replies...
about your post, I have two things to mutter...

1. HMMMMMM...

and,2. Jonathan Livingston Seagull is one of my all time favorite and practical books ever written. We, could make a path based just on that book. We could almost have a sub forum on here called "J.L.S".

I read that book when I was around 11 or 12. I often refer to it in my mind, especially lately. It is no "co-accident" that you have used it in your signature. Because of the influence that book had on my life I Literally view seagulls much differently than other people, and hold them in less contempt (despite the fact that they are presently using MY and only MY car in the lot as thier personal latrine!)

Watching the beauty of a seagull soar over water and dance on the wind is better than an eagle. they are magnificent flyers.

I have always thought the idea of mastery and carrying on in the afterlife, on the learning journey, is absolutely what happens to us. I have read all Of Bach's Books. Might be high time I read them again. My favorites were (in order of preference) J.L.S. then Illusions-The reluctant Messiah, followed closely by "ONE"

I will reread you post to milk its guava!

:smile:

Your poor car!
..... that's just a seagull's way scrabbling after fish heads until they've learned how to "fly higher"!

I like the JLS sub-forum idea... and I think there are others who would also like that.

"Be lions roaring in the forests of knowledge, whales swimming in the oceans of life."

Tao is the seeker seeking. Tao is the finder finding. Tao is the way of Itself.

To be clear here in cause I wasn't. You do have a choice, lots of choice, more than most can possibly realize. Choice however is only possibly relevant from the finite perspective. When one accesses their inner divinity they directly create their reality, not choose it (and then make it).

I would say that it confirms you as one. It also says you have more that you can learn from the teachings.
I would not try to talk you out of your choice. It is a fine choice, it is your choice.

So for now you choose to be you and not you in equal proportions (balance).

I leave you this for consideration: without a path you can enjoy the whole day including the part where you are in bed. Joy does not increase or decrease depending on where you body is.
As to what to choose, have you looked at my 'me not-me exercise'? http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=53437

I realize this does not directly answer your question but it would give you the knowledge that allows the question to answer itself. By being aware of when you are being yourself, you can naturally gravitate to something that will serve as your path.

Great stuff again! Thank you for your compassion Wstein.

Great minds think alike!-(as well as not so great ones like mine)I did read over your post on learning to know "who you are". well done! Many people could learn from this method. Maybe organize it in a systematic way, and get it out into the world. we need this.

anyway;
I am not trying to dismiss it, I have done this work already but had no idea others did it too. i have lived a sheltered life. isolated as hermit literally due to a bizarre condition which has no name but makes me ultra sensitive to most noise, crowds, people yelling partying etc. its been a lifelong struggle to just exist let alone truly live. I am not looking for pity about it. just sayin' it is what it is. Its been horrific, and i dont know how i am still alive despite a few suicide attempts, but Im not feeling this way now. I realized, its pointless to attempt that, as we just return to repeat what we need to learn anyway so its folly. but i digress...

I have been on this learning about myself journey (as defined by how you do it), for as long as i have been alive. I have been wondering why I started this at such a young age. I have always been a square peg. I love the x-men movie series because of this. I never fit in. only later in life, at the risk of sound conceited, did I understand i was doing all the things that these master were teaching. I live in peace, i have compassion, I knew who I was at an early age. I saw things others did not, I had the eyes of owl.

what I didnt know until I read your forum was how much I actually did it according to your method. although I never wrote it down. I just always had a clear in-sight as to who I was. and if your saying this is the process, I have completed it, or rather, i have fully undergone it, and the learning curve is slow now. as there is always things to learn. :)

Here is where it gets crazy. Two weeks ago I lost a friend to a betrayal. I wont go into details. I am still reeling over it. trust me when I say it was very confusing for me, and worse, it hurt. I started to undergo the "cleansing process"(I have no other word for this). I had done my cleansing( an emotional and spiritual process that is allowing all emotions to surface , and be released), in the first half of my life. and was very freeing, but sometimes when we experience loss, we must release these toxins in our body(painful emotions). as the new experience is absorbed by our spirit.

The problem is , all that i thought I knew about what i was passionate about, i.e. music, water. swimming, my native american heritage and rite to Elderhood, etc., basically all that I knew that i loved, is now foggy. I dont feel any interest in them at all. I dont want to do anything now, i want to sleep, I lost interest in things i once loved, I dont want to talk to anyone, I dont go out, i dont even want to go outside. and i dont care that I dont.

I have been crying a lot lately. It comes in waves and i know this is residual effect of loss of my friend who was in my life 24/7. in the four years I knew her, I did not spend one night away from her, she lived with me. We were NOT bf/gf. But I thought we were very good friends.

At least I THOUGHT we were. it changed in an instant two weeks ago. and It sent me into a tailspin, and this is mostly why i am reaching out to forums.
The reason i have been wondering about my path is, that since this happened, I dont know who I am anymore. Thats what i figured out yesterday. worded as i was saying it " i dont know who i am anymore"

I seem to have lost all of what i knew about what i loved. I was feeling that way all yesterday. all the work of my first half of my life.

I recognize this as a loss of ego. Becoming who i truly am. it's a paradox.

anyway, this learning who i am, may have to take place all over again but with no ego. if that makes sense?

. I know the basic stuff, i.e. I am lust, i am peaceful, I am empathetic etc, those thoings which are part of my nature, remain, but some of the ones that I did, which as i mentioned i think were egotistical, I have no use for anymore.

the good news is I had a series of co-incidents yesterday which made me feel, that all is well, despite my pain. So I am waiting. I am open.
I will wait and see, as the zen master would say. this too shall pass.

how long have you been on your journey? What was the most key thing you discovered about you?

great peace!

Sorry you had an unfortunate happening. Four years is a long time to have constant companion. Even though you were not romantic partners, it is still a major loss. That is a time to grieve. Grief causes many of the reactions you describe related to disengagement and feeling disoriented. It will take some time. Its been less than a week for each year you have been close. Even if that closeness may not have been as reciprocal as you imagined, it was all still real to you.

Always. This body was born 54 years ago. I have some access to vastly more lifetimes. I brought various understandings with me into this life. Unlike most people, they was not beaten out of me.
The bits of soul in most of my incarnations is not pleased about what our over-soul is doing. If there is a reason for all this endless incarnating, it has not shared.

very well put. I appreciate your empathy, and compassion wstein yes im definitely grieving. this was the factor that has shaken my world. and I did not expect it to have such an impact. But it did. and thank you again for understanding.

I was lucky to not have been beaten, but I also did not come here with any knowledge of my past lives if there are any. I guess I have always thought, that for me, I just dont know. I dont know for certain if there is anything after this, or before it. So I live NOW. I didnt become a buddhist because thats saying that we KNOW there is something in next life, and then my focus is not in the here and now, it is concerned with escaping Samsara. no man can know. only he can believe it, or if like you he has direct experience or memory, its still a personal truth unless we do the Vulcan mind meld.

Are you psychic? i.e. can you access this knowledge to help others?
what a gift. I am glad though i do not possess it. :wink:

Guava
 

Confusionsay,

I believe you will ascertain from the attachment I am now sharing with you,

....that, as "guava" may have the most significant impact on everything you've received and commented upon in this thread.

The reference is a Frequently Asked Questions brief by author Chuck Hillig, who advocates, "Living as the Source of Who You Are".

This is how I just came to the startling realization that: Consciousness is what Tao is !! .

Hope this helps you see why, as well. :smile:

Reference: http://www.chuckhillig.com/FAQ.html

Hi there
Oh dear! It sounds like you are feel emotionally numb. Shut down and shut in. I understand how terrible emptiness can feel. I have wondered if it happens when we are too overwhelmed to take on one more problem. Have you any thoughts on that?