is eating fish really that bad?
 

Do you think eating fish is bad? And what about sneaking in some dairy?

Hahaha. I don't think so but I'm not a vegan. It will ALWAYS depend who you talk to. Guess it depends on the real reason for the crusade your on. If it's to help the environment think about the pros and cons. If it's just because your peers are doing it. Go for it, have a piece of fish or a glass of milk. I won't tell. :wink: wine might be a better option, it's made of plants. :tongue:

You have to do what you feel is right for you. There is no one-size-fits-all.

I don't eat anything with mammary glands. That rules out all land and sea mammals (platypuses don't have nipples but they have mammary glands... lowest common denominator :biggrin: ). But I do eat fish and other seafood, and poultry (chicken, turkey, duck if I can get it). I'm not vegan, so I don't have a problem with dairy or honey or using animal products. Leather is questionable but often a necessary evil.

That said, there is a cognitive dissonance for me. I know that chickens and turkeys, stupid birds that they are, have a right to live. So do fish, probably one rung higher on the intelligence ladder than an amoeba. Yet, I don't know that I could go completely vegetarian and not eat any animals. It may be a cop out but I tell myself I'm probably Kshatriya from past lives, the ancient Indian varna ("caste") that includes warriors, law enforcement, societal protectors and guardians, and don't do well without eating animals.

So again, do what's right for you.

Lol, that sounds like me. Do whatever feels right within yourself. The only thing with fish imo is the plastic issue. Micro plastic they ingest, then of course so will we. I've found a great alternative for milk to go on cereal and in my coffee. It's called Oatly whole. Not sure if that's available where you are. I try and buy organic dairy if poss.

Ethically, there’s no meaningful difference between mammals, fish and birds here. They all feel pain and pleasure. The diets that idolize cows but ignore fish are cultural, and not really based on animal ethics, but more along the lines of “we like cow milk therefor cow is highly “evolved”. Fish and crocs are bad, mmmkay?”. Humans tend to like mammals more because we are mammals.

If one is concerned about the environment and impact of diet, but still wishes to eat meat, then it’s best to eliminate at least beef (main cause of deforestation and takes up too much land) and fish. With fish, the biggest issues are overfishing and by-catch. Dolphins are declining because of that. Fisheries can’t be trusted and farmed fish creates problems too.

I think the problem goes far beyond plastic because fish suffer too. Imagine yourself pulled under the water and struggling to get back to the air so that you can breathe. For fish, it is the opposite. Humans drag them up into the air and they can't breathe and it's like they're suffocating in the air because their gills can't get the oxygen that's all around them.

They even feel pain, fear and have some experience of joy and fun. Years ago, I came across the following, a video of a guy who plays with his pet fish and he says, she looks for him and comes to the corner seeking attention. It's actually pretty cute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BVMyfFhjW8

People will have a variety of ethical stances, but I take a purely nutritional standpoint, and from that perspective there is no such thing as bad food. Fish is nutrient dense, a leading protein source, rich with essential fatty acids, A,B,D and K vitamins and some minerals. Some folks might not want to eat fish, but that only means they need to get the nutrients from other food sources.



The whole problem with ethical eating is not eliminating animal products per se, but eliminating animal products at the expense of adequate nutrition. As we eliminate more food options from our diets it becomes increasingly difficult to get the nutrition we need, so personally I don't advocate eliminating any food options. For example, vegans eliminate a vast array of animal products, but they also present with a host of issues related to poor nutrition and the majority of them go back to animal food to save their deteriorating health. It's remarkable that vegan eating is socially projected as 'good' both ethically and nutritionally. It can be a healthy way of eating, but you need to know nutrition and take a few supplements. Most people don't know these things, so they lack essential nutrients, and their heath deteriorates.


That said, this is my comment - don't restrict your diet to the detriment of your nutrition. If you really need dietary advice, see a properly qualified dietitian

I shouldn't have used the word only.

So do all animals that are deliberately killed when humans need to eat food (domesticated or wildlife). With this topic of fish it's once again a matter of ecology, and not human projection of ''rights''. If it's about rights than the dolphins and the bears shouldn't eat fish too, as fish ''suffer'' at the hands of other animals as well.

Veganism conflates ethics with ecology/environment. As I've done volunteering for a number of environment and nature organizations over many years I've come across a fair number of vegans and this conflation and inability to see that the two (animal welfare and environment) don't always match is a painful show to watch.

This is about ecology, not ''suffering''. If it was about suffering than no human or animal should exist in this world because their breeding will continue to perpetuate suffering. So ask yourself if this is really about ''suffering'' or something else.

Well it's not good for the fish that suffocate and die in the nets or those that have no space to swim in a crowded factory farmed fish tank. It's also not good for the millions of dolphins, sea turtles and other marine life that might unintentionally be killed because they get caught in sea nets.

It's also has health risks such as mercury and saturated fat.

The difference between a bear eating a fish and human eating fish are quite vast. The bear only intends to kill the one fish or enough fish to feed him and his family. He also likely has no real other options than fish to survive, unlike the modern human being who mostly who has options from the grocery store. So we can choose to try commit the least suffering possible.

Also the bear does not have trawlers which deplete the ocean of billions of sea life, including non target species. The bear also doesn't have factory farmed fish systems, where fish are crowded and suffer from not being able to move freely, similar to the lives of chickens and other creatures who cannot move in cages or highly crowded and dirty sheds in factory farms.

We also don't expects bears to be moral agents, but just because they can't doesn't mean we as humans shouldn't try to make considerate choices and try to commit the least amount of harm possible in our given situation.

For those reasons and more it is clear that there's a major difference between a wild animal hunting what they need for survival and humans mass breeding and mass producing animals for the purpose of eating them in absurd numbers and far far beyond what our actual need to eat them would be (I don't believe we actually need to eat them anyway and I'm doing fine as a vegan).

Agreed. Purely objectively, a vegan diet is an extremely poor choice for an ominivore species and in particular does not tend to meet the needs of the brain, which is an energy hog & represents ~20% of our baseline metabolism (humanity). Nearly all other bodily systems also require components only or best sourced from animal sources and nearly all vegans are (even severely) deficient in a few key nutrients which are difficult to adequately supplement.

If you can tolerate dairy and eggs, then a vegetarian diet may suffice, but if like a marjority of adults round the globe you cannot consume much if any dairy (or just find whole unprocessed dairy a bit rich in its natural, most recommended and best utilised form), then a regular omnivore's diet is best, with as many local and organic, minimally processed products as possible.

So in that regard, fish too should be local and/or wild caught, ideally, having been sourced in a sustainable manner. Due to pollution and overfishing, the fact is many fish-based cuisines will probably have to transition to consuming more meat in future. Wild caught fish which clean enough to eat are likely to be more of an occasional treat in many parts...so that there's still some left to sustain their (fish) population.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

@Spiritual Mike; Not sure how your post relates to mine (?). I was mentioning how ecology and ethics may be conflated, and increasingly they are (from my experience) conflated in environmental groups. Keeping chickens is a good example. I'm not sure what bears not being moral agents adds to that, you got me confused on that :S.


It will depend on the specific fish, sea region, and how it was caught. It's not as clear cut, and based on research I'll have to revisit my first post here, although, globally it's not looking great. Pangasius from Asia is really best avoided, as are most conventional fishing practices in the developing world. With mackerel, salmon, trout, and herring it will depend. Cod and tuna are endangered.

I think pulling fish out of the sea is one of the most tortuous things we do to animals. Fish are such peacefull and elegant creatures.
And all the this talk about animal flesh having protein and nutrients or what not of cause it does they fly swim and walk like we do.
Plants are different they grow in the ground.
I know vegetarians who have the most beautiful and healthy looking children that have a have a certain aura and vibe about them. :toothy4:

There are lots of reasons to be vegetarian or vegan, so asking if it's 'that bad' could mean many different things!

- Is it because you believe it to be morally wrong to eat living creatures? Then where do draw the line? Plants are technically alive, so Jainists only eat things derived from living things (ie. nuts, fruits, milk). Some people draw the line at some level of brain capacity; Fish don't actually have emotions and chickens aren't that smart (even though they do have emotions).
- Is it because you don't believe in mistreatment of living creatures? Then you should definitely not eat milk or eggs. What about honey? Do you care about "abuse" of bees?
- Is it for environmental reasons? Because raising livestock in the modern day has a much higher carbon footprint than growing crops, so you should especially not eat beef, but chicken and fish isn't quite as bad, and milk or eggs is kind of OK (it's still not efficient as a purely vegan diet).
- Is it for health reasons? Because studies do show that lower meat and animal product consumption is actually healthier, and recently people are making a big deal about Patrik Baboumian who is the world's strongest man - and a strict vegan!

According to all the points, eating fish is not as 'bad' as eating cow flesh and arguably it's not as bad as drinking milk.

Did you know that the early gladiators were mostly vegetarian. No meat and they were big strong men, fighting for their lives.

As for fish being only barely above an amoeba, did you know that they have relationships, can have affection for one another and some even use tools (rocks to crack open shells to eat the critter inside). Doesn't sound all that stupid so once again, you're eating sentient beings who don't want to die.

Here's a cute little video of a parrot fish who obviously loves to play with his person and the description under the video says he waits at the corner of the aquarium closest to the door and gets all excited when his person comes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnE... index=52&t=0s

Dolphins have no options so suggesting that vegan insistence on being merciful should require dolphins to be the same, is just kind of silly.

Veganism is about not causing suffering to animals, making choices that don't use or abuse them. The fact that it turns out that eating meat is destructive to the environment is not a case of us conflating the two, but is more realistically just one more reason why it turns out that it's good to eat only plants. When I found out that my eating habits are better for the environment (and my health) that was a bonus to my decision to be vegan.

Not sure why you say 'this is about ecology' because the OP was only asking 'what do you think about eating fish and sneaking in some dairy'. Where did ecology come into that question? Sounds more like an ethics question, not ecology.

I think most people probably cannot be healthy as vegans, as can be hinted at with the many vegans that go back to consuming animal products. So, many people are left asking which foods have the lesser impact. When it comes to animal products eggs and chicken are the clear winners. With dairy and fish it will depend on the how/what/where. Beef and lamb are generally the worst offenders.

You count eggs as ''still not efficient as a purely vegan diet'', yet, when you get eggs from backyard chickens or a small farm, and provided they are fed with grain and seeds, this will have lower environmental impact than any plant protein source one buys in the supermarket.

Chickens should undeniably be part of a sustainable future, provided they aren't fed with soybeans. Chickens can be put in almost any garden, don't take much of people's time and care, don't need the space that larger animals require, and provide us with the easiest and least impactful protein in the form of eggs.

There is no god or bad in all that, it's just a matter of choice.
Just choose.

If it means I would interfere with a sentinent being's free will to exist, I don't eat it. So any animal products and that includes honey as well, is off the table for me.

Animals do have souls, as we do, and evolve. They can evolve into human souls. And humans can also devolve into animal souls.

I have heard on good authority that while plants are cognizant of sensations, they cannot evolve into animal souls, much less human ones.

Again, that is just my stance tho. You do you. I ain't your judge and jury. :)

It is neither good nor bad, it is what it is, and if you are comfortable with it, than it is OK.






Add: did not realized that I posted in this thread, at least I am consistent.

No it is not really bad...i love eating fish ..Yummy !

'EAT' anything without guilt.

Eat what you fancy and feel your body needs.

It is only as bad as it makes one feel.

Eating fish is far from bad!!!

Fish is about the healthiest protein source there is and as someone mentioned earlier the beneficial fats in fish are literally "brain food" and good for your cardiovascular system too!

We eat fish often. Living on the coast, we have a boat and the whole family loves to fish, both with pole and spearfishing so pretty much all the fish we eat...we caught ourselves!

The documentary Seaspiracy can change your mind.

It won't change your taste buds though, so inconsistency is always still a possibility.

You should do what's right for you and listen to your body's intuitive needs. Eating fish can be more eco-friendly than other animal sources.

The idiots in UK are building a huge fish farm for salmon,instead of keeping the rivers and seas clean increasing wild stocks,some big unnatural industrial concrete thing is going to produce inferior fish and be a drain on the environment.(also if the eating of fish presents a moral problem due to killing why not just eat the largest ones-eg if you eat a thousand tins of tuna,would still be less death than say a prawn sandwich,I usually by fish when it has been well reduced in price,in the hope I am saving it from landfill)

For me eating fish is a problem. I do not like fish. It tastes... fishy. ��

I was vegetarian for a short (27 year) phase but outgrew it finally. But I still just do not like fish.

Fishy? That's not good. I don't blame you for not liking it!
Fresh white fish -and esp. unfrozen, is not fishy....from my exp.

We love fresh sardines grilled Mediterranean style with garlic and olive oil and served with a Greek salad!!!

We spear our own out in the Gulf of Mexico which is a lot of fun for the grandkids and my wife is an expert at grilling them over coals!

Fresh sardines don't taste anything like the oily little stinkers in a can....they are absolutely delicious and waaay healthy!

I know, right!
In Key West we would catch so many shrimp off the Pier at night...NEVER tasted that ever again. No one knows till they do.
I wish I could taste the fresh sardines!
Wait..this would be gross to a Vegetarian...I'm sorry...I was one for years...lobster and then fish were the first to go!
And there I was in Maine, USA!
For me - if you area vegetarian you don't eat anything with a face, period! Maybe that's just me.
If your MD says you NEED animal protein ...eat eggs, I guess, I dunno.
(But, be sure not to eat a bottom feeder!!!) ''IMO! That is."

Freshly caught mackerel were lovely,more like sea trout than fishy,I now sometimes get the canned stuff,the mackerel on the local market is very fishy-must be as the flesh ages and also water loss probaby-(what about that scandanavian one they let ferment in the tin!some people must develope a taste)

I feel a small quantity of fish is more healthy than not. It is good for the mind & body, and I feel it is nutritious.

Yeah it certainly is nutritious, but I think people should be cautious and consider ecological concerns. Overfishing and by-catch are real issues.

We are daft and over trawl .The massive ancient stone fishtraps discovered I think on Google Earth looked a great idea,huge structures that funneled sea fish that were then netted with small boats(I presume they processed the fish for drying on the boats and the waste tossed over the side acted as bait to bring more fish in)-I guess we also used selective waste to fatten up pond and river fish,waste that now usually ends up in landfill,it is things like this that convince me the civilisation is moving backwards and most are under the delusion that we are advancing-'ooh lets have fish farms with GM chemicalised fish that tastes of nothing!'

While you people talk about fish, I have developed a desire right now to eat a Snakehead fish. Tasty.

It can't be. Jesus used to eat fish
lool. I had some nice fish earlier tbh. Besides that, im avoiding meat, keeping my diet sattvic for the most part, and avoiding salt and added sugars.