I think spiritual life is essentially not an identity in that it pertains to universal truths such as awareness, that pertain to all people regardless of their religion.


It is probably does.


I have rituals to elicit certain psychological states, and assist in consistency, but just for mundane activity such as lifting weights, and I don't give them any importance.


Sure, there is a lot of research that shows tremendous social benefits, but it does tend to be quite exclusive on the condition of conformed belief. I used to volunteer at a homeless kitchen run by a church, and the people there just assumed I was a Christian, so I didn't say otherwise nor talk about spiritual things. When I meditated in ashrams I became deeply involved with the sangha, but I had my own ways, which I didn't talk about. This meant I wasn't actually a part of the respective groups simply because I didn't revere their iconic figures or ascribe to their teachings in any blind faith. At the church, the pastor asked me what denomination I belong to, and I said I was baptised Anglican, but I'm not a practicing Christian (which is true), and he said, it's OK because I am baptised I am accepted into the kingdom of Christ.

In my kingdom, it's different because it's more like, everyone breathes, everyone thinks, everyone is aware, and we all have our own outlandish beliefs.

Namaste.

Religion and spirituality are all about perceived concepts, on an individual and/or collective level.

I could say something which relates to myself, that is true for me alone and have others disagree with me because it is not true for them, but they cannot prove their way of thinking any more than I can prove mine...and so all we can say is 'God bless you and have a nice life'.

Spirituality is an individual concept/idea, that we are each working towards our own personal growth and are at different stages of it, but are not bound by any teachings, dogma or anybody else...however, that isn't entirely true either, or else certain 'spiritual authors' and 'gurus' wouldn't be as popular as they are...for mankind always seeks justification, acceptance, camaraderie, tolerance, importance and self-image...and so the more people who agree with their beliefs and opinions, the more people who follow their way, the better because they are 'not alone' they have others to 'talk to' now and to bounce ideas and philosophies off each other...and maybe a hundred people will get involved in a 'spiritual movement' and publish their collective works and findings...and thus a religion is being born.

However, they will be the very first to say "oh no...we are not religious because religion does 'bad things' in the name of it and we do not"...giving examples like ISIS or the Spanish Inquisition...totally forgetting that it's not the religion which causes it, but mentally unstable adherents of it (fanatics) and totally forgetting that other religions like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism etc exist apart from the Abrahamic ones which their minds will automatically associate with 'religion'.

I could say that I am Hindu...I could say that I am spiritual and there would be thousands who would disagree with me on either front, or I could say that I am 'That' or I am 'Brahman' and have everybody agree, even if they haven't realised this for themselves and don't know about it anyway.

Reminds me of something I found in the stories forum:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=24049

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That is a very nice story and thanks for sharing it (or the location thereof anyway). :hug3:

If only people could just nod, smile and return to their 'caves' to meditate...but there's a difference between external/environmental events (or the perception of them) which leads to a belief or an opinion which they will die to defend, and those perceptions of the same stimuli which will result in the direct realisation and experience of their own inherent divinity, totally irrespective of what is occurring externally...and this is why, all of the enlightened masters and teachers have described the world, described all our experiences except for the ultimate, conclusive one as being Maya (illusion) or Mithya (false perception):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

I guess my whole issue being that often, communication is impossible and I don't know how to rectify it, because no matter which avenue I take, it seems to be detrimental to my 'spirituality'.

For example, I may express a thought, belief or a feeling out of some human need to do so, only to have another say "you're totally wrong about that" or "you're stupid if you believe that" or "that's not how it really is, you're delusional".

Now, there are a few ways I could go about this...I could defend my view/opinion as it relates to me, only to be 'stubborn', 'ignorant', 'closed-minded' or 'intolerant'.

I could ask them "what makes you say that?" or "could you please explain yourself?" only to get a reply like "if you can't see why you're totally wrong, then I cannot help you" or "I don't need to explain myself to you" or else just re-iterate their position without any further elaboration.

I could always just laugh and ignore them/walk away, but then I am back to being 'ignorant' and 'closed-minded' again and 'not willing to listen'.

There is a reason why ancient tribes had a 'talking stick'...but most people consider that idea totally ridiculous...I sarcastically wonder why...lol

...and so, no matter which way I go, communication is impossible because I am fully aware that I am comfortable with my own thoughts and views, and if I listened to everybody and took everybody's opinions and beliefs on-board as my own, the total contradiction between all of them would drive me totally insane, so I have to have boundaries...and unfortunately, many people don't know the difference between a 'boundary' and a 'closed mind'.

So, the only other option is silence...but then again, if I am going to start being silent, I won't be able to stop being silent because I haven't yet learned when to speak and when to shut up, so I would shut up all the time and just communicate by neanderthal grunts and monkey hand-gestures...and others would say "wow, that's great...I totally managed to shut that idiot up for good...look how amazing I am".

...and so, I stay in my 'cave' and don't venture out of it and have over half of SF on my 'ignore list' because I just cannot deal.

For myself, I have simply come to accept that I am just like everyone else.

I have my unique view -just like everyone else. I feel my view is the correct view - just like everyone else. I like to think that I see beyond my own view, but no matter how I look at it, it's my view, and no others'. I want everyone to understand my view, and stop telling me anything negative or contradictory to or about my view - just like everyone else.

People can be very devious and relentless in trying to get me to adhere to their view, in unending ways, both overt and underhanded, and I am no different. I sometimes wonder if someone does succeed in invalidating my view, will I cease to exist?

I know Maya does not actually exist - it is illusion - but I have come to realize I am completely powerless to avoid it, because it is my view, and who are we without our views?

And so, when we fight and grasp at establishing our views, I have to remember that I am just like the person fighting and grasping in front of me, and how easy the imposition becomes the point of the communication, leading me to otherwise feel lost and hopeless.

Remembering that, I also go back to my cave.

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Namaste Shivani Devi,

You bring up some good points.

I feel humans on some level are social beings. It feels good to be able to express oneself and find others who understand. Why some religious gatherings are so popular, perhaps. A safe place to gather and worship, for some, IMO. Atleast in my view, suppose to be.

What may raise questions in my mind is whether what is being taught, preached, written, ect. is being done to help guide or to "self" promote.

I see spiritual teaching and practice as a form of religion. One may have realizations and awareness of things, and may wish to share. When one is sharing such in a spiritual way, one in a way is being religious.

Religions in some ways tend to get clumped into one basket, but there are so many different practices, beliefs, teachings, organizations, and such, so feel it is presumptuous to generalize all as the same. This is not directed towards you, by the way, just an opinion.

I can agree it is when it gets fanatical that conflicts arise and oppressive actions take place.

One could take on a title in order to define in what manner one believes or practices. One could hold no title and still have a ritual and/or practice he/she does. One could not give a toss about any of this and be kind and open to others.

We do come in all shapes, sizes, and experiences. Makes life interesting for me.

Some things can understand, some things I get lost with. My mind has to make some sort connection to it and have it make sense. It has to resonate with me on some level. If not, then tend to put it aside. Some things have taken time to understand, other things just don't get.

Brings to mind, some things are meant for me, and some are for others. To respect this and not always expect that another is going to agree, like, or even be interested.

Well those are some thoughts I have at present

Thank you for your thoughts.

Hi Gem,

Can agree to each their own.

It what keeps life interesting for me. How boring it would be if we all thought the same.

I think if more were willing to agree to disagree and get on with it, perhaps all the dust kicked up would settle down a bit.

You make some excellent points, if I may say so.

The main problems seem twofold: there are almost no facts in spirituality so correspondingly almost everything said is an opinion.
And: words are fairly useless to describe experiences unless one can count on what they mean being commonly recognised. At times it can be difficult.

Understand in that it would affect me similarly once though now I'm more used to it and happy for people to assert if they want to when I know I'm facing opinion. Call me stupid if they might so........


Well, huh, if they suggest I can't see where I'm wrong but can do nothing to help remedy it then I switch off, wondering if they know what they're talking about. Otherwise, I'll "listen", always wondering what's new to take in or from a technical viewpoint what can be learned.

Laugh away and ponder yourself on how close-minded you are. You probably aren't. But yes, one gets that kind of rebuff here so I notice.

It's a shame the practice became extinct. I suppose here it's a bit replicated since replies are sequential. People can't all talk at once. I fend to read through a whole topic if coming in late. No use repeating what someone else might have said earlier.

Shame, that. There are those I ignore here but don't put them on the list in case they pop up in an interesting thread. Could be they have something relevant. There are pompous people, preachers, pragmatists, genuine ascetics, all sorts. I could well be on your ignore list; am probably on over half of members' ignore lists. I try to be sincere because this is a forum where that would seem appropriate, just have to watch my optimism as it can turn into humour that isn't often appreciated. Sincerity isn't always appreciated.

I've learned a lot here; been forced to look at my background, at occasional capriciousness and flippancy and made to wonder. I've learned how selfish emotions can be.
On the other hand, how precious people are.

Hi Kioma,

There are times when I feel it just isn't worth the effort. If one is rigid in his/her ways, I can not change that and perhaps it is not my place to do so. For it is up to the one being such.

I too have had times in my life I clung onto a belief and dug my feet into the ground. Then realized it was that I was defending my parents and what I was told more so then what I actually believed deep down. So worked through letting this go. Still things will come up, but now can recognize the source of them better and go on from there.

It is not so much about being right, as it is to have an outlet to express things.
If just by myself, then what am I learning? What expands the view? What use is it? These are the pondering that arise in my mind.

For me it has and continues to be to take responsibility for my actions and words. To do my best to keep an open mind. To not take Everything as being personal.

Sometimes it just a different view point, a different opinion a different understanding. Which creates in itself the rainbow reflected of ourselves, me included.

Thank you

In my case, I'm not involved in agrees and disagrees apart from issues of consent. The way I see it is, if the mind is moving to agree or disagree and be right or wrong, then it's trying to draw conclusions rather than look more deeply into it, and it's important for people to look deeply and critically into their beliefs - not as rationale, but into the whole structure of taking a thought, making a conclusion, and taking-it-to-be-true - especially when taken in blind faith. A belief set in reason is a matter of individual discernment, and I can only advocate discerning ability. I believe things, but I know they are not true; it's merely the best I have to go on, it seems quite reasonable, so I do. At some stage the errors of it become apparent so it transforms or develops accordingly, but it will never actually become true. This is because the beliefs are an individual matter, and they are not universal, and spirituality as far as I am concerned regards only universals, such as this awareness we both know, for example.

I'm not going to dispute or argue against your views. It's a public forum. I gave mine. You're entitled to yours. I'm not going to press any points. I see a few religions in the making in these forum sections and it is up to the participants whether they follow them or not.

Yup, I'm familiar with Christianity, Shinto, Dahomeyan (in the Caribbean both petwo(pedro) and rada) Yoruba. To a lesser extent the other Abrahamic faiths. It is rather fatuous to claim that I have no understanding or experience of how religions operate.

Case closed.

I am going to cross-reference three threads here, including this one.

What we see, what is presented to us on the spiritual/religious level, is only a 'mental smorgasbord' of opinions, beliefs and ideas.

Now, when you go to a restaurant and 'smorgasbord' is on offer, you only take what you want and how much you want...bypassing all of the other dishes you find personally distasteful...leaving those dishes for others who may like them.

Do you go up to the chef and say "why did you make that for, you idiot? I don't like that...remove it from my sight, immediately!" yeah, you'd be kicked out of the establishment quick smart.

However, when there is no fear of such repercussion, when anonymity is involved, humans will complain long and loud when what they choose to see or hear doesn't meet up with their expectations, when they go into it with bias in the first place, knowing what they will 'accept' and what they will 'not accept' but they forcibly subject themselves to those things they 'don't accept' ONLY so they can whine long and loud about it to whoever will listen to them.

You only have to go on Youtube, on Social Media...on any type of Internet medium to see all of the trolls being let out of their cages...and if you don't agree that 'Aliens built Pyramids' why click on the link for...eh? ehhh?

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...1&postcount=20

...and so, you also get those, who despite the fact you are ignoring them to oblivion and back because they are full of fear, hate and like to just attack you for the sake of it...and even though you have them on 'ignore'...they will keep on polluting threads with rubbish...and the more you stay on topic and try to keep the flow of the thread moving along, the more they'll try and shaft it, railroad it...and they cannot SEE they are simply wasting their time and energy because I laugh in their face...yet still, they continue to bash their heads against a brick wall...hoping it will make some difference, when they have a snowflake's chance in Hades with me due to their over-emotional outpourings at the total expense of ALL logic.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...=118068&page=7

End my story.

Hello,

I realized in starting this thread was entering into what some may hold as sacred ground. It is personal to the individual that may have, hold, and found to be true for him/her self. So, feel to tread softly and with this awareness.

Now, to be clear I speak for myself and according to my outlokk. I respect that there are other ways, beliefs, and (dare say), knowings out there.

It is a big world and even larger universe out there. I don't know for others, only for myself.

I do see similarities in them and in certain ways both seem to be pointing at the same essence in life. Find a curiosity in this, an interest which brings a wondering why it is chosen by some individuals or groups to cause conflicts.

I have had conflicts with religion and spiritual matters and at times find these will still arise with in myself. Find it is not so much others, unless being oppressive or persistent that his/her way is the only way. It is with in myself.
Sometimes what may seem to irritate indicates a place that needs attention and healing, as I see it. Sometimes it is recognizing it is simply not for me.

It has been told to me that everything with in thinking stems from love or fear.
Which took some time to take this in. First reaction was, great more cliches, but it has stuck in my mind and find in essence this hold truth, for me.

Why, does someone judge another? Why does someone feel unworthy? Why be divided? Can ask a lot of questions, but if not found with in myself, then seem to go around in circles. At other times, if not ask how can I understand where another is coming from or how to intergrated what has been given.

I enjoy different view points, different beliefs, different appearances. They are the reflections of being human and of the light and shadows that create the images experienced. Some even give me further awareness.

If it works for the individual, great. This does not mean it may work for all, IMO

Sharing further thoughts on this and appreciate those who have shared in his/her thoughts and insights.

The answer to me is simple, because it is simple to observe. Generally, it is all about self-interest. This is what generates all the drama, and many of the feelings of 'love/hate'. This is what my last post was about, and what transcendence is all about, IMO.

It is a paradox that we must transcend self through self, but fortunately we are not alone, if we choose not to be. To LOOK around and SEE that what is inside us is also all around us, that is the opening of the third eye, what 'openness' is all about, IMO.

To me, the purpose of life is to generate awareness. That sounds very sterile, compared to the reality, but that awareness is a very complex and powerful force. It is, at the top level, the very foundation of the omniverse, IME.

The division is indeed manufactured out of fear and drama. I am nobodies enemy, but some see me as an enemy. In reality, we are all one.

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Thank you

It brings some reflections I have on this.

Yes, find that life itself is not a solo act and one thing can and does affect another.

Thoughts seem to create the perception of things. The how, why, what, and so forth. Yet, just observing find nature/life goes on and does it thing. See the interactions.

Love and fear seem to run on a scale and one can affect the other.
One may protect oneself for love of life.
One may worry about a loved one for fear of loss.
A couple examples that come to mind.
This also for me comes in how it is thought to be and my thoughts affect how I may perceive something. Another's thoughts may influence this as well.

So yeah, seems to come back to self.

However one may find connections seem alright by me. It is more in how one may act out or project the thoughts that seem to create a sense of unity or division. If one chooses to do so.

To become aware of my thoughts and what is just occurring around me can be a bit tricky if overthought about.lol
This is what comes to mind. It is what I think it is at present, for me, but not all it is.
Suppose this is what is transcended through the self.

Absolutely. View varies by perspective, and of course all thought is conceptual, not literal. This is both a limitation and a liberation - It's limiting in that we can never completely know anything, but liberating in that we can think beyond what we do know. This is how transcendence is possible.

That may be overthought, but I don't think so. I think it is appropriate in the context of the discussion. If you want to talk about the weather, we can do that too. :wink:

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Lol, Kioma. Thank you for bringing lightness to the discussion.
For when I say overthinking, mean making it a burden of sorts.

Which brings the mind to these thoughts.
To allow the mind to wander in the wonder and possibilities.
If humans never did this, then what would we have, where would we be?
All this would hold very little meaning and what it brings would echo hollow, IMO.

Not knowing can also be liberating in the sense that I don't have to pressure myself to know, but can still enjoy what life may bring.

Is a strangers' smile less bright then that of a friend? Just playing with a thought here.

I enjoy the discussions here and get great insight and view points that help me clear the air a bit in me.

The weather has its stories to tell as well.:wink:

I think at times that is best that I can do go on what I know at present and feel to do.

Yes, it is discerning one thing from another. Beliefs for me have and do fluctuate and change, but some things tend to stick around longer then others. Some things are learned through trial and error.

Yes, do find there are Universal ways one can become aware.

It is also, for me, what I find trust in. This can take some time to develop.

As far as agreeing and disagreeing, can understand the position that it is making a conclusion of sorts. I also see it as it being whether it makes sense to me or resonates with me at present. Depending how I understand it at the present.

Again, absolutely agree. And thank you for bringing your wonderful insights and participation to the forum. We need more like you.

And honestly what my ruminations constantly bring to my mind is the scope of what I don't know, for even in the 'order' I 'see' is an infinitude of uncertainty, precarious adventure, and unknown potential, for my every observation also tells me that one thing that can be expected is the unexpected. God is much smarter and much bigger than I am. I am but a tiny drop in a vast cosmic ocean. All I can do is be open to the possibilities as this life unfolds, always seeking my highest expression. :hug3:


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You are much larger than you know, and I hear that "Don't know" mind is a very beautiful one indeed. :hug3:

Humbly thank you for the kind words.

You have value being here and sometimes one may never know the impact one has upon another. What we do affects each person and the living beings that we touch in its own way.

I find it is what keeps life interesting, this not knowing. When I think I have it down it changes on me anyways.lol

Yes the universe is a vast place and this world holds many wonders. Does not take much to see Spirit/God in action. Just look around and feel the air pass by. Look at ourselves, what wonders we are. All that has been, is, and will be creating and moving along.

What an honor to experience this and experience another and the gift he/she may bring.

However one may wish to praise it, worship it, dance in respect of it, is all allowed by God, Spirit, and the energy that flows.

I also enjoy what you bring to the discussion :hug3:

Yes, it is better for me to have loose beliefs, keep an open mind, and have a transforming worldview, and trust is so important in life, such a delicate thing.

Thank you Blossomingtree and Moonglow. Your words are very much appreciated.

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As is your presence.

We all have gotten across the best of religion, the bigger world is too beautiful at that we call religion, dig in please.

Spirituality, is that like tuning in a foxy pilates dvd found at target? You Can handle the chip.