Kashmir Shaivism - The 36 principles and the 4 spheres
 

A post from a friend from here.

I am going to start first with the deity Shiva(n) vs. the principle of Paramashiva. The following posts will explore the 36 principles and the 4 spheres that make up the cosmos.



We can see this distinction spelt out in almost all Shaiva traditions. The Shivam is referred to as Param Shiva or Parameshvara in other Shaivite traditions such as Kashmir Shaivism.



Shiva(n) is a supreme deity who is considered as the earliest to come out of the primordial. It is pronounced as Shivan ending with the 'n' in Tamil works to denote clearly there is individuality associated with the term. The deity Shiva is a tangible (in some ways) with characteristics. Whereas the Shivam is the principle of formless reality that can't be described or explained by words. In my opinion the Shivam can be compared to the Holy Father in Christianity or generally as God. The Tirumular defines it as 'Anbe Shivam' in Tamil. It simply means Love is Shivam or God.



Here is a description of the principle from Kashmir Shaivism.

The Shivam or Param Shiva is beyond the 36 tattvas. Similar concept is found in Vaishnava and Shakta traditions also. There is Maha Vishnu (or Narayana) vs the supreme deity Vishnu in Vaishnavism. There is Para Shakti (Parashakti) vs the supreme deity Shakti in Shaktism or Sri Vidya traditions that worship the Goddess as the primary deity.





The following picture depicts the 36 tattvas from KS. It is from the same Wikipedia page referenced above. Just included for reference to the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattva...:Tattvas36.gif

I was reviewing and contemplating on the 36 tattvas or the principle aspects of nature in Kashmir Shaivism. Wanted to share my understanding of tattvas and how they relate to the Anda or different layers of the cosmos or the dimensions. Please use the picture in the post above for reference. These principles are not some abstract terms coined to describe some vague theory a long time back. Each one of these principles apply and operate right now in this moment and will continue to do so. These are ingredients that make us the sentient beings, the universe that we see and perceive including the astral realms and various dimensions that we perceive. Time itself is one of the cloaks or veils preventing us from seeing our true nature.



These tattvas are just so fascinating and they explain the origin, function and demise of the entire cosmos. They can also help solve our current predicament and with the suffering that we undergo because our true nature is obscured. I feel it is best to go through and understand this top down. We also need to have a basic understanding of the lowest level tattvas to start with this such as the mind, sense organs, sense perceptions that make up this worldly experience. Everything starts with the Paramashiva in Kashmir Shaivism. This Paramashiva descends into the jivas, the sentient beings or the multitudes step by step with the 36 tattvas. All of us started as Paramashiva and got to wherever we are at this point. How did we get to become the local independent person or xyz? It is through the descent of these 36 tattvas or principles. We can understand our story or origins with the help of these. Self-realization is about tracing our way back from the lowest principles to the highest ones to find ourselves as Shiva in the end.



The first tattvas (after Shiva tattva) emerge in the Shakti Anda/layer or cosmos, which is part of the shudda or pure layer. Meaning these tattvas are not influenced by the maya yet, the veiling force of Paramashiva with the 5 cloaks (kanchukas).



From the Paramashiva emerges the:

1. Shiva tattva (Light or consciousness but without awareness)

2. Shakti tattva (awareness of the light), or the polarities of the male and female principles in the creation.



Followed by these 3 tattvas.



3. Sadashiva tattva - Self-awareness of this, and there was no self awareness before this point. Also corresponds to the iccha-shakti or the power of will of Paramashiva.

4. Ishwara tattva - the objectification of self-awareness such as, this is myself. This layer corresponds to the jnana-shakti or the power of knowledge/knowing of Paramashiva.

5. Suddha vidya tattva - this-ness becomes balanced at this layer. This layer corresponds to the kriya-shakti or the action/active power of Paramashiva.



There is no individual separation of a sentient being or jiva (Purusha + Prakriti) yet. Will expand and see more in the next post.

1. Shakti Sphere (Anda)



The 4 tattvas or principles that we reviewed earlier starting from the Shakti tattva to the Suddha vidya tattva (2 through 5) are part of the Shakti Anda or the Shakti Sphere. This is the first sphere to form from Paramashiva after the emergence of Shiva and Shakti. These 4 tattvas and this entire sphere is under the 'pure' (shudda) tattvas layer. That is because the prapancha or the entire created cosmos at this point of reference is still not under the influence of maya or the veiling force of Paramashiva



In this initial stage, the divine nature of Shiva is still not obscured. Pure Ananda shakti or bliss further descends into the 3 iccha, jnana and kriya shaktis described



Tattvas in Shakti Anda:



Shakti tattva
Sadashiva tattva
Ishwara tattva
Shudda vidya tattva


There is no duality at this stage, it is a state of diversity in unity. There is no individuality or separation also since we are above the maya, purusha and prakriti layers.

I am hesitant to use the word enlightenment anywhere in reference to Kashmir Shaivism concepts because the definition of such enlightenment in the modern world falls much shorter of the higher realizations stated in trika, pratyabhijna and in KS. A state of calm mind or attaining early samadhi levels of silence like savikalpa or nirvikalpa samadhi states, or in some cases just a mere perception or basic understanding of awareness with some heart opening is considered as 'enlightened' or fully awakened state these days. In the framework of Kashmir Shaivism, they are not even at the Purusha level. This is just the 25th layer in KS. But many traditions stop right there and think this 25th layer is the highest state and declare 'it's done' and the person has attained moksha. They don't go all the way up to the 36th layer of Shiva and to even beyond to realize the state of Paramashiva.



Well, how can a person who has not penetrated or overcome the maya-layer or opened the veils (kanchukas/cloaks) to truly realize that we are beyond time, space and limitations, claim they have the full realization? Yet, we see this happening everywhere these days just because it is the new fashion to say, "You know what, I read a book and went to a talk and I am spiritually awake now!". Then they go on to describe enlightenment is simple (it is truly even simple, but not what they think it is!!!), there is nothing mystical or magical about it. Essentially, they are discounting their own true nature, their own luminosity in ignorance. They either fail or refuse to see that their true nature is beyond any and all limitations. Each one of them can reach the state of realize they are none other than Shiva and can create worlds of their own at will with the iccha shakti (power of will). Such statements may shock and terrify those who think they are already done and enlightened, they think whoever states this is behind powers or siddhis. My dear friends, we don't have to go running behind and seeking powers or siddhis, this is not about that. The veil of the maya is powerful indeed, but when it does come off with the anugraha/divine grace, we realize our all powerful and unlimited true nature. The force of maya makes us feel small and limited, even confine our ideas of enlightenment to a limited state of inner silence. Without realizing the worldly ego is now replaced by some residual spiritual ego, some go on to conclude they are done and start to even teach others!



It is not possible to penetrate or overcome the maya tattva and to realize one's true nature without the divine grace or anugraha, no matter how advanced a person is (or think how advanced they are).

2. Maya Sphere (Anda)



The next sphere or layer of descendancy is called Maya Anda and it is part of the pure-impure layer (Suddhasudhha). The veiling force of maya starts in this layer. There are 7 tattvas or principles in this layer. The Maya itself is further split into 5 sub divisions called cloaks (kanchukas), each one of them veiling an unbounded or unlimited aspect of Shiva to create the illusion of limited and tangible experience. Together with the maya there are 6 cloaks.



This pure-impure layer is made up of: Maya tattva + 5 divisions of maya/cloaks + Purusha tattva.





Maya Tattva and the 5 cloaks:

Maya Tattva - The divided experience and the feelings of a limitations arise because of the Maya tattva. The following 5 cloaks described below altogether make up the limited worldly experience and all of this are part of the Maya. Since our true nature of bliss and contentment is hidden by the Maya tattvas, the resulting feel of incompleteness prompts various desires to arise.

1. Kāla tattva - Limitation of time. There is no concept of time, past present or future before this layer. Our nature was unbounded eternity before this, but this layer creates an impression of being bound in time.

2. Vidyā tattva - From the all knowing state, this layer leads to the impression of limited knowledge
3. Rāga tattva - This layer causes the feeling of lacking and leads to attachment and desire. Buddha describes our clinging nature as the cause of samsara leading to births and deaths.
4. Niyati tattva - This layer hides or cloaks our all pervading nature and leads to the limitations of space, distance, form, etc.
5. Kalā tattva - This layer forms the limitation of activity and authorship. Our universal nature gets hidden and a sense of limited agency appears. Unlimited creativity becomes limited.



Even after the maya and the 5 cloaks, the question remains these bondages and cloaks apply to who? It certainly does not apply to Shiva, Shakti, Sadashiva, Ishwara or any principle described earlier. The answer comes with the next tattva, which is the Purusha tattva.



Purusha Tattva (also called jiva, pashu, anu or nara) - The 'this' awareness that started earlier turns into 'I' consciousness (not to be confused with the ahamkara/ego at this point), further reduced into a finite jiva, sentient being or separate person. It is the purusha to whom those cloaks or 5 limitations apply. Purusha is also equated with the individual soul concept, jivatma (jiva's soul) or atman in hindu terminology. The purusha by himself is not activated, the individual separate being is still a concept, or just a placeholder (anu). Only when the Prakriti (The individual Shakti with the 24 attributes to be described below) joins with the Purusha it becomes a fully operational entity.



We are about to descend into the impure tattvas territory after this which is mainly made up of mind and it's various components.

I borrowed the following image with some descriptions from shaivism.net link pasted below. It explains the 5 cloaks with some brief but good examples to illustrate how each one of them translate into our worldly experience.



http://shaivism.net/articles/11.html

The power or force of maya that veils and creates limited experience is not something external or involuntary act of mistake. From the five acts or powers of Shiva, we know that the forth act of obscuring grace (Tirodhana) is a voluntary act done to create the worldly experience. It is the Leela or the play of the divine. Whenever the purusha or the individual jiva or the sentient being has had enough of the divine play and wants to return back (to their original nature), the act of obscuring grace is reversed by the act of anugraha/shaktipat (divine grace) letting the jiva trace the way back the tattvas to realize they are essentially Shiva, not just a separate and limited entity.


Here is the link to the topic about the five acts of Shiva in detail.
https://theprimordialway.com/index.p...-matter-to-us/

There are two more spheres. The Prakriti Anda, the sphere that contains the shakti of the individual jiva. This sphere falls entirely under the impure tattvas since it is made up of the local mind and it's limitations. We will explore this layer and the 4 components of the mind in more detail in the next post. Finally there is the Prithvi sphere which is the physical layer or the solid substance of the manifested world.

Sharing couple of posts from another KS topic to describe what gives rise to maya tattva/principle. It is the 3 impurities (malas) as described in the following posts that gives rise to the maya. We can also conversely state that the maya principle causes the impurities to appear.

How does maya unfold?

(The following steps and text were compiled form The Siva Sutras by Swami Lakshmanjoo)

apurnammanyata - The feeling of incompletion that starts from the anava mala. Ignorance of the oneness of Siva. The sign of bondage is the feeling that you are incomplete (apurnammanyata). You agree that you are incomplete, that you are not full. That is the impurity (mala) known as anavamala. It is shrunken knowledge and it is ignorance. Why? It is shrunken knowledge because it is knowledge of the differentiated world and it is ignorance because it is ignorance of the undifferentiated state. When you do not know your undifferentiated state, that is ajnana (ignorance), and when you know your differentiated state, that is also limited jnana (knowledge). Jnana is bondage and ajnana is also bondage.
bhinnavedyapratha - The differentiated knowledge that arises due to the mayiya mala. He is mine, he is not mine. This is beautiful, this is not beautiful. This is good, this is bad. All these statements are examples of the knowledge that is yonivarga. This kind of knowledge is the impurity known as mayiyamala.
subhasubhavasana - The impressions of pleasures and pain that result from karma mala. This is done, this is to be done. This is half done, this is well done. These statements are examples of knowledge that is kala sarira. This kind of knowledge is the impurity known as karmamala. It is bondage and yonivarga, separated knowledge, is also bondage.


(For the definition of the 3 impurities/malas, please check the second link from the post above)

3. Prakriti Sphere (Anda)



At this point we have stepped down from the universal God consciousness state to the common human or sentient being level of consciousness after going through the maya layer (anda). The pure tattvas the part of universal consciousness and in combination with the maya tattvas they are mixture of 'I' (subject) and 'this' (object). Whereas this prakriti layer represents the 'this-ness' or the objective part of the manifested universe (while the object is still at the core).



This layer is made up of the following 23 impure tattvas/principles or components. There are totally 24 impure tattvas, the last one Prithvi tattva falls on the last layer which is the Prithvi layer.



Here is a break-up image of the 24 impure tattvas from Wikipedia.


13. Prakriti tattva - This principle is the root or the one that gives birth to the rest of the 23 elements or principles that follows.

14 - 16. Antahkarana (3 tattvas) - In Kashmir Shaivism the mind is made up of 4 components. a) The buddhi (intellect) that discerns or has the ability to judge and discriminate, b ) the manas (mind) which is the seat of emotions and has the faculty of imagination, c) the ahamkara (personal ego) or the part of the mind that gives rise to the individual 'I' feeling and d) the chitta which is the storehouse of all subconscious impressions.

14. Buddhi (intellect) tattva - Intellectual part of the mind that has the ability to judge and discriminate

15. Manas (mind) tattva - the seat of emotions and the faculty of imagination

16. Ahamkara (personal ego) tattva - gives rise to the separate individual and personal ego



17 - 21. Five sense organs (jnanendriyas)

22 - 26. Five motor organs (karmendriyas)

Five subtle elements (tanmatras)

32 - 36. Five gross elements (mahabuthas) - The prithvi tattva shown below is part of the next and final layer, the Prithvi Anda.

4. Prithvi Sphere (Anda) - This sphere contains the Earth principle which is shown as part of the 5 mahabuthas or gross elements in the previous quote. This concludes the 36 tattvas and the 4 spheres of KS.

Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism I - Purusha, Prakriti & Maya



As we are coming to the conclusion of these 36 principles and 4 spheres in KS and just with one tattva left to go, it is important to understand some key differences in the manifestation philosophy between the Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. Some of the later principles (23 or 24) described in the later stages look similar to the principles described in Vedanta, but the following quotes explain the difference.

Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism II - Three Gunas (attributes)



The 3 gunas of sattva (purity), rajas (activity) and tamas (inertia) are a notable feature and a key fundamental concept of the samkhya, vedanta systems and several other Hindu systems and philosophies. However these systems do not clearly explain the source of these 3 attributes as pointed out in the quote below. Kashmir Shaivism and some other tantric sects have a different take on this subject of 3 attributes. These attributes do not hold the same importance or meaning as in the system of Vedanta. While this may look like a minor thing, these 3 gunas are basic building blocks of everything in the universe in these systems. Changing the significance of these 3 gunas and the way purusha, prakriti and maya are defined sets the KS philosophy clearly apart from Vedanta. The basic foundation of these 2 systems are themselves vastly different. Just because there are some superficial similarities at the surface level, some people are entirely confused or motivated into believing these two systems are essentially the same.


For someone that has studied various Hindu systems and vedanta, when they initially approach the KS or other tantric systems, they may tend to interpret or believe that some of the concepts are the same. Trying to compare Brahman with Shiva in KS or Brahman with Vishnu in the Vaishnava systems. Since many of these systems also talk a lot about óneness' and nondual, this adds to the confusion and leading to the wrong conclusion that the ultimate reality described by these systems are all one and the same. It cannot be further from the truth. A very careful study and a clear understanding is needed to see and understand the fundamental differences. For instance, the concept of Brahman is fundamentally different from Param Shiva in Savitie systems or Maha Vishnu as described in the Vaishnava systems. There are similarities between how Shiva is defined in Shaivite systems and how Vishnu is described in Vaishnava systems. We can find more similarities ironically between two competing systems (In ancient India) of Shaiva and Vaishnava systems even though one is primarily based on Monism and the other is mainly based on qualified-nondual or dualistic philosophies rather than entirely non-dual philosophy. It is interesting to note even the Saivite systems and tantra initially started as dualistic systems. Shiva is the top deity or the Óne'to first mysteriously appear as infinite light at the beginning of creation in the Saivite systems, and it is Vishnu who is the Óne'or the first to appear in the Vaishnava systems. Shaiva Siddhanta system of southern India which is popular even to this day is the an example of a Saivite tradition that started entirely with dualistic philosophies in the beginning and later with the influence of Kashmir Shaivism and other traditions adopted the Monistic principles.

Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism III - Moksha or Liberation from bondage

The path to liberation described in Vedanta and KS can highlight another important difference between the traditions. Vedanta advocates things like discrimination, dispassion, right conduct, etc.; basically the individual makes effort to attain moksha. There is not a lot of emphasis on the initiation (Shaktipat) or even the necessity for this in order to attain moksha. Whereas in KS, the world is a divine play (leela) and one comes out of it by skatipat (anugraha), descent of the divine powers on the individual sentient being.

Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism IV - The path to liberation yoga & upayas (paths)



In the last post we saw how the views on liberation differ from Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. In this post, we are exploring the means or the path that leads to liberation. As discussed below, in vedanta emphasis is laid on controlling the mind by discipline and by various practices. There are paths like jnana yoga, karma yoga, bhakti yoga, etc. in the Vedanta system. Kashmir Shaivism has it's own unique paths in this regard. They are 3 upayas (paths or methods) 1) Samhavopaya, 2) Shaktopaya and 3) Anavopaya. The emphasis is more on getting initiated or by getting transmission (shaktipat or anugraha) from the divine in KS vs. the individual solving the puzzle by various practices in Vedanta.

Adding this last part as a question and answer.


Yes, the explanations won't be of any use unless we are initiated by a qualified master. Even pictures or paintings will be of no use without initiation or shaktipat. Shiva is not just energy. Shakti or the energy descends from Shiva in various forms. Shiva is like the 'One' that emerged out of the Dao. This one then splits into the two polarities of Shiva and Shakti. One is like the container of everything there is and the other is the contained or the entire substance of the universe (Shiva = 'I' and Shakti = 'This').



At the same time Shiva is also a being and a deity. Not everyone can just simply merge with Shiva. It is the 3rd divine act of Shiva (Tirodhana) that voluntarily conceals our true nature and makes us into a (divided) limited sentient being. First this person (the limited sentient being) needs initiation (shaktipat/augraha) from a guru or divine being, which is nothing but the act of Shiva described as 'anugraha', undoing the earlier act of concealment. Those with open crown and has reached the light level through such divine grace, can connect and merge with Shiva or Shakti or other divine beings and deities. This is the deity and guru yoga practiced in some of the hindu and buddhist tantric traditions. Everyone can pray with a picture. But, such prayers with paintings or pictures happen entirely in duality and has very little value. Because most people have not expanded enough to come out of their individual shell, they won't be able to access the other dimensions and beings. Some with 3rd eye open may be able to see things and even do astral travel to other places. This still happens in duality. Even those with 3rd eye open and do astral travel cannot merge with Shiva or other deities. In order to truly merge, one must first become one with everything there is, go beyond the local body and mind and reach the light state.



Master (Guru) is the means in Kashmir Shaivism, as clearly stated in the Shiva Sutras. It is the master who needs to initiate and establish the connection with Shiva. Sometimes it is done directly (for highest yogis), some other times with the entire mind or being as the mantra and finally with the external word mantras (Anavopaya) for those that are inferior with strong worldly attachments and desires and still have a lot of ground to cover.



gururupayah // (sutra 2.6)

The master (guru) is the means.





After getting initiated by the master, finally the yogi becomes like Shiva as stated in the Siva Sutras below. This is the goal.



Sivatulyo jayate //

He becomes just like Siva.

Thank you so much for typing this up, Jonesboy.

As this thread was posted on the back of the Kundalini thread and a link to this thread included in that Kundalini thread, I made the error of replying to this thread there when I should have replied here itself.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=650

In my reply, I included an article explaining the Sri Vidya and its relationship to Kashmir Shaivism from the ParatriSika Vivaraṇa by Abhinavagupta.

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/the-...the-sri-chakra

The posting I made was totally overlooked by all and sundry. This is pretty much why I don't bother anymore. =(

Do you honestly believe that people on this site click on links provided by other members? Of course they don't...it seems like nobody is interested in whatever anybody else has to say and when I read through threads like the Kundalini one, I can plainly see that everyone is talking, but nobody actually seems to be speaking or engaging at any level one would consider "meaningful" and it is why I pretty much gave up on that thread a few weeks ago myself.

I notice how nobody from the Kundalini thread has posted here even to acknowledge the fact they have read this or even seen that it has been posted and that is very sad. I don't understand why things have to be like this...do you? What does one have to do to get involved in a conversation on the matter because I honestly don't know... every time I try, I fail and I have absolutely no clue as to why. What makes a person invisible Jonesboy? Do your teachings say anything about that?

Anyway, enough of that...just some random musings..maybe I need a break from this place for a while...off to read "The Doctrine of Recognition" by Kshemaraja and to meditate on a fine painting of Lord Shiva and merge with it because any "samadhi" is better than no samadhi whatsoever (no matter how brief or incomplete it may be) when one doesn't really have any choice anyway.

Aum Namah Shivaya

I post links to give credit to the author, to show I am not making something up when making a point, to show I am getting my information from an authoritative source and lastly to show I am not taking something out of context to fit my view.

I have found people love to take a sentence from something and say look what the Buddha or whoever said but if you read the entire thing it is the exact opposite of what they are trying to push.

Happens a lot with guru discussions.

So post lot’s of links :)

Who you consider to be "authoritative" and who another considers to be so, may be two entirely different things.

Sometimes people will ask me for a "source", to wit and which I usually say "what is wrong? isn't THE Source good enough for you?"

It is probably no wonder I get no opportunity to communicate with my fellow beings on anything other than the mundane fundamentals of physical existence....because they will just say "go talk to God then" and any idea I get about the non-separation between myself and another quickly vanishes if I find myself making no contribution whatsoever to the "collective whole" and I really should start thanking myself and appreciating myself on behalf of others for my knowledge about Tantra because nobody ELSE is ever gonna do it, are they? Even you did not given the opportunity, did you?

Did you even read that link I posted or aren't you going to? Just be honest with me...if people want to post something saying they hate what I have written, I will take that over nothing at all and be grateful that my time isn't being wasted...and all I want is an opportunity to express Gratitude, which I am never given...but anyway...

Maybe there is a message in this that I have not been getting for years...maybe I am not meant to be doing this and the universe wants me to forget about doing this and do something else, because if I was meant to be doing this, it would make a difference to myself and the world around me ..which it is definitely NOT doing and I just end up pulling my hair out.

So, when nobody else is ready to hear what you have to say, learning to shut up and just keep it to oneself becomes the hardest thing ever when another raises the subject..and then "if I told you, I would have to kill you" applies, doesn't it?

People just flap their lips and nobody CARES if post your sources because they will all disagree with it all anyway...they just don't deserve to know the truth, basically.... there's no nice way to put that.

Aum Namah Shivaya

It’s pretty easy to tell an authoritative source.

If Buddhism go to Buddhist sites where Buddhist ordained people post. Simple.

Same with KS.

You don’t use Pinterest for a quote, some new age blog persons view etc.

Right now in a different section someone wants to use the English dictionary for Buddhist terms. The meaning for words for terms are different than the standard English meaning.

Wisdom doesn’t mean wise or someone with knowledge.

Wisdom in Buddhism means the realization of. Not an idea but a state of being.

Completely different and why if you are trying to learn something you learn it right from those in the traditions and not what you think or want it to be.

The traditions have lasted for thousands of years for a reason. Learn why from those who really know...

As far as those that disagree, let them. You never know who might be reading but not posting. Better for you to learn correctly, if someone else doesn’t care it is there loss.

The thing is, brother, why do we "wise folk' consider it to be our duty to educate others who simply don't want to be educated?

There must come a point when we need to let go and let them bask in the glory of their own ignorance isn't it? Yet why is this so hard to do?

If we are just posting stuff on the offchance that someone may read it without giving any feedback or acknowledgement, why are we not writing books and becoming the "authoritative source" ourselves, instead of posting on a forum which is meant to be interactive?

forum

/ˈfɔːrəm/

noun
1.
a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

I can give dictionary definitions too...

Maybe we would be better off going to those places where ordained Buddhist and Hindu people speak? I have often considered it.

I consider it whenever I think about why it is those scholars are not falling over themselves to post on this forum...I wonder why...

Aum Namah Shivaya

I did read the link and it is very deep. Lot’s of information in there.

Very similar to KS and some interesting aspects to deities or an aspect of one at different levels of depth. Very interesting and something I agree with. I think of it like nesting dolls.

I’m sorry but I will have to do more research.

I do know people much more informed than me on Hinduism but they don’t hang out here. Let me know if you are interested.

What they are doesn’t have to be what you are.

Lot’s of dummies, know it all’s and super enlightened people (in there own mind) here at sf. Not a lot of serious people here I am sad to say. Some are but most aren’t or don’t believe.

I post here because I like a good debate and dealing with difficult people helps me find my issues to work on.

Yes, of course I am interested! Hanging around here waiting is just doing my head in.

Thank you for taking time to read the attached link and I do agree that it is a lot to take in...nobody gets Sri Vidya Tantra in a single day...take your time and get back to me whenever convenient.

Once again, I appreciate your consideration and response..I look forward to having more of these interactions in future.

Iti Sivam

Yeah, but when nobody wants to engage me in debate at all, what can that mean?

At least you have people talking to you about these things...I don't, so consider yourself priveleged they are even disagreeing with you, because I don't get the luxury of even that..

Oh well, it just probably means I need to meditate and introspect more instead of sharing knowledge and experience which is only meant for me and nobody else.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Well it could be that people respect you and your knowledge and because of that they don’t debate you.

If you want debate hang around me more often. People always disagree with me. I am also sure I will find a thing or two to disagree with you on :)