The Controversy Between... Air & Fire
 

Ever since I began studying magick, it has been obvious there exists a misconception regarding the element known as fire and air- the two elements that behave in a masculine fashion. Fire and air are both ascending elements, air being the "container" of the element known as fire. To me, this is one reason to believe that the order of the four basic elements, in ascending order (lesser to greater), is certainly Earth, Water, Air, Fire. This is because earth is the container for water. Earth contains water, and air contains fire. This has been my most common reference for the perception of the basic elements and it has worked well for me. Also, when invoking pentagrams, the elements are invoked as: fire, air, water, earth; or banished as: earth, water, air, fire.

By this knowledge, air would hold dominion of the intellectual body, and fire over the spiritual body. I have seen fire (more commonly) represented holding dominion over the mind, and air holding dominion over spirit. I have never understood why, because no matter how you look at it, fire always comes in after, or top of, fire... Unless, of course, the order is reversed in certain cases.

The order, by any means, remains as so: earth is as to water is as to air is as to fire, or fire is as to air is as to water is as to earth. In alchemy, the elements are changed in this order unless you combine two elements, but then you aren't necessarily changing the element.

Where do I you place air and fire, and why?

For a short while, I admit that I treated air as the spiritual body but only because my tarot cards told me so. My readings would still make sense to me and I would be able to perceive the message but I often thought the suit of air would be better depicted with a fiery influence, and vice versa for the suit of fire.

Hello Phantasmic Fox,

I'm not quite sue by what you mean by - quote - "The order, by any means, remains as so: earth is as to water is as to air is as to fire, or fire is as to air is as to water is as to earth?? Can you explain that please.

You ask how others place air and fire and why - so here's how I work with the elements:smile:

Earth - elemental - Gnome; direction - North; season - Winter; time -
midnight; colour - green or black; cold and dry; Feminine; rules solidarity, material things, the body,

Air - elemental - sylph, fairy or hawk; direction - East; season - Spring;
time - dawn; colour - yellow; hot and moist; Masculine; rules thought, wind, intelligence

Fire - elemental - salamander or dragon; direction - South; season -
summer; time - noon; colour - red; hot and dry; Masculine; rules strength and passion

Water - elemental - undine or mermaid; direction - West; season - autumn;
time - dusk; colour - blue; cold and moist; Feminine; rules the emotions

When casting the circle I place Earth in the North of the circle, Air in the East, Fire in the South, Water in the West and Earth in the North.

There was/is controversy over where Air and Fire should be placed - some traditions place Fire in the East and Air in the South. MOST practitioners, groups and covens place Air in the East and Fire in the South. There was a story going around that, years ago, the Golden Dawn put out a blind mixing the placements of Air and Fire so there would be confusion - which there is, of course.

The way you place is elements is correct in the way they relate with each other.

I am sorry that the way I speak/type comes across as cryptic at times. The way I typed out earth is as to water is as to air is as to... does not portray a very high standard of writing etiquette. My typespeak is oftentimes erroneous and esoteric to many.

By the order which the elements occur, I mean exactly that. In whatever pattern you place the elements, they occur as so: (1) earth (2) water (3) air (4) fire; unless the pattern is reversed, which happens due to nature of polarity integration, then the the elements still appear is a consistent sequence. The only difference is the pattern is backwards.

It is difficult me to explain what I am trying to get across in order for people to understand- I know that -because it gets very complex and hard to piece together. I know most people base their beliefs on blind logic - they will usually hold their beliefs under a blanket of secure knowledge they have grown to trust. I'm different because I create my own beliefs by forging theories based off of what I have experienced in my own reality instead of seeking answers in texts. I come to my own conclusions unlike most people who study the conclusions of others until they find someone who agrees with their understanding. I think this is why you have difficulty understanding the topic, and why everybody else reading this has.

Anyways, I am sorry I've strayed from my own topic, possibly creating more confusion.

The way you describe the elements is my basic understanding of them, in simple logistics. I suppose my inquiry is: why would anyone believe fire dominates the intellect, and air dominates passion and power? I cannot for the life of me justify the placement of fire in the east and air in the south. Other characteristics that support this are: Earth and Water are dense while Fire and Air are thin. Air shares the blunt nature of Earth and Water yet Fire is unique because it is sharp.
This suggests that the elements expand and become more powerful, affecting a greater surface area, as they become less dense and less visible at the same time.

I again apologize if my typespeak is hard to follow, lol.

No need to apologize:smile: Besides if we talk long enough we'll get used to each other's way of expressing everything, lol

I don't believe I have difficulty understanding the topic - I just wasn't quite sure of what you were getting at and how you were expressing it - so please forgive me.

Agreed - why would anyone believe that fire dominates the intellect; but actually, I don't think any practitioners of magic do. They may change the placements of Air and Fire in their circle, but if Air is in the South it still symbolizes the intellect and if Fire is in the east it still represents passion, etc.

I think it's great that you create your own beliefs from what you experience. When I learned much of what I know I was quite young and the tradition was taught to me by an elder and it included some (not a lot, but some) Ceremonial Magic and for centuries that's how it had been understood and worked with.:smile:

That's an interesting theory - that the elements still behold the same meaning while simply being placed elsewhere. It makes me ponder: what if the placement of the elements in the circle changes according to the time of year.... Like how the stars appear at different directions as the year progresses in a circle?

Although this would not make sense unless the earth rotates in multiple directions at once, otherwise there would not be a cosmic force capable to create a pathway for the elemental influences to travel. I think the earth would have to rotate on at least two axis for this to be possible. Although the second axis could be the rotation of the earth around the sun and not the earth itself spinning. Perhaps this is something to muse upon....

Wow........getting too deep for me, lol:smile:

I always draw the pentacle as Earth on the bottom left point, air on the upper right point, fire on the upper left point, water on the lower right point and Spirit at the very top point.