Truth and Reality
 

i believe:

we can never actually know anything. we as mankind can never know truth. only believe in something that we think it truth. we believe so strongly in something that we think we know that we call it truth.

how do we get to knowing? logical deduction of experience? experience is individual. experience relies on information received from our senses so it is therefore flawed from the start.

what is reality but the accepted belief of truth?

is truth or reality important? - yes. lol. its important to believe in things we think we know.

keeping doubt part of wisdom is wisdom indeed. :D

When you go through a saturn transit and rememberance of your misdeeds come to light answering the reason for your suffering is the beginning of knowing.

Truth is not dependent on belief. I have this one cousin who believes the world would end in 2012 yet he forgot he believes in the vedic information, that this age last 432000 years. Only 5000+ years have passed.

Here is a case of a person who believes two "truths" yet they contradict one another. Contadiction of two beliefs= falsehood somewhere......!

As a result his assessment of life is blurred and confused. Knowledge of a religious text and knowledge of science when they agree then truth is certain. Dinosaurs according to the bible existed alongside man, they were called dragons then, the word dinosaur didn't exist. Looking for the word dinosaur in bible is stupid because you should know the history of when the word dinosaur was coined. Both science and the bible agree they existed, but the time periods differ. Recently a acrheologist proved man and dinsosaur existed alongside man , after finding a man's foot moulded in warm lava and a dinosaurs as well. Also she found a human bone , carbon dating proved the bone to be old as dinosaurs bones. The myths and legends of dragons and dragon slayers suddenly appear to be more than just a tale.

I don't think the truth can be quite the same as a fact... and a belief by definition can not be the truth, rather an approximation at best.

I feel the issue is mostly about truthfulness, which entails integrity, for one would only perform actions he can be truthful about, and also, be honest within while not entertaining delusions.

if truth is seperate from belief - then all we have is the perception of that truth - gained from our rationlised experience taken from information recieved through our senses.

so what we have when we individually say someting is truth - is not truth - but a perception of truth. what is a belief if it is not a perception of truth? :smile:

hmmm....

integrity relies on belief of truthfulness though - it doesnt necessarily have to have anything to do with truth.

i like what you said though - a belief is an appoximation of truth.

Some things are fact, no matter how you look at it. For example, the earth orbits the sun. But yes, you're right, when it comes to matters of faith, it is in the end a subjective truth.

but even the earth orbiting the sun is based on a belief. for instance - how do you know it does? have you experienced it - have you seen it first hand - or a video?

if you have not personally experienced it and seen it on video or understand the theory behind it - you are believing that the evidence shown to you is the truth. so its a belief again.

its just like saying the earth is not flat. because of the size of the earth - you cant see it first hand - you have to believe in theory and logic to say the earth is not flat. its a logical deduction dont get me wrong - but its all still belief. belief in evidence that someone else suggests, that you can understand and so you believe yourself, that belief held so strongly - you call it a fact. but that fact is based on belief.

saying something is a belief doesnt necessarily make it illogical or fantasy. its about understanding the human condition. :smile:

would you explain what a saturn transit is?


I had heard about the man's foot mold, but never made the connection of dinosaurs=dragons.
Why/when was the word dinosaur coined?

hope hath no doubt and doubt leaves no room for hope comes to mind!!! I see what you getting at but everyone just wants the truth and according to the laws of manifestation , the truth IS what we make it isn't it? It is hard to spot a liar and even harder to spot the truth? HMMMM....

Real truth can only be discovered while in a state of high vibrational consciousness. There is a river of wisdom that flows into and out of all living things, I have come to know this river as the river of infinite intelligence, and when you elevate your energy frequency high enough anyone can access it's wisdom. It is where real truths are found again!

I think integrity is the nature of behaviour and entails honesty sincerity and compassion, but it also stems from the word 'integral':

Adjective:Necessary to make complete; essential or fundamental


Synonyms:whole - complete - entire - total - full - integrant


In that way... Integrity refers to the 'wholesomeness' of personal character.

That's very interesting, made me read it twice.

"everyone just wants the truth"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM

Why? Real truth or true truth suggests that an ultimate absolute ultimate 'truth' relating to the Cosmos exists. To use the analogy of an expanding cosmos 'truths' could only relate to the ever evolving percievers of such. There may well be a fixed stagnant cosmic state of truth far beyond our present cognitive abilities; however we cannot claim that that which we do not comprehend, in terms of any ultimate reality,exists as arguably we occupy an extremely low state in that which is unfolding; it is extremely egotistical to believe that we are very close to ultimate reality/truth.

2 + 2 = 4

There is only one answer and an infinite amount of wrong answers.

Truth is just how the universe works, It is simply the nature of nature, the eternal laws of the universe, and the nature of the mind which distorts this understanding from us.

It is false to say that truth is subjective, We all experience the same reality from different perspectives, Truth is just how this reality works, it is understanding of the universe as it relates to conscious life (us).

we can never actually know anything. we as mankind can never know truth. only believe in something that we think it truth. we believe so strongly in something that we think we know that we call it truth.

how do we get to knowing? logical deduction of experience? experience is individual. experience relies on information received from our senses so it is therefore flawed from the start


In the relative world 'truths' abound, some reliable and some variable.

However there is absolute truth... universal and unchanging.

You can't know this through any mental processes like beliefs, logic, learning, etc. as it lies beyond all that.

We get to this natural knowing through meditation, in the quiet open space within ourselves.


Xan

a belief that there is absolute truth - is still a belief.

meditation is a mental process - for example what you "learnt" while meditating - you must be concious and thinking. what you "learnt" is stored in your memmory.

then what you believe is truth - is based on memmory. unless you have a perfect memmory then it is belief again.

there is no escaping.

let me ask you can something be true without it existing in "reality" - without it existing in nature?

When all knowledge is gone...truth remains.

does it? sounds like a belief to me! :tongue:

its tricky to say that knowledge isn't truth. something cant be a fact - unless its truth surely?

one of the more interesting definitions of knowledge is "justified belief" - which i think should be the most important thing.

Yep....and you know ; )

..... if thats what you believe - ok then. :wink:

(damn it you got me before i edited! lol)

LOL
Everyone knows...even if they for some reason or not, choose or not, believe or not, that they don't.

hmmm - does "know" deal with truth?? you can't know without belief though.

how about -

everyone believes they know truth ...even if they dont realise its a belief. :tongue:

No LOL Knowing is not the same as knowledge. Knowing is to be "it". You can know the Truth but not in terms of knowledge....therefore one can not say Truth is this or that...well that is not quite true either...yes you can say it but it would not reflect the Truth. There is Truth but what that Truth is one can not define, as words are limited and subject to interpretation.

lol but as soon as you "know" - that knowing becomes "knowledge".

the question still remains - how do you "know" in the first place?

to say "there is truth" - is a belief there is truth. i think it goes beyond words down to perception. if there is truth - then we only perceive it. whilst there is human observation - then it is only belief that what we percieve is truth.

so if there is truth we can only believe that what we perceive - is truth. but that is not "knowing" that truth exists in the first place. it is believing in truth.

The difficulty with words is that there is always another meaning for a word. The Knowing I am talking about is not based on knowledge (information). You can only know it by being "it". It's like being consciously unconscious. And if you understand that then you understand more then me : )

hmmm - you are more going for the awareness definition of knowing??

that doesn't get you beyond "belief" though in terms of truth - you can believe you are aware. but then later you can say "i believed i was aware, i wasnt but now i am" - then this is a belief again.

nope no escape! :D

O.K. I give up...hey but I fought a good fight at least that's what I believe : )

Eagle... Although the human mind is a learning machine full of beliefs, both useful and not... mind is only one function of consciousness.

Meditation is going beyond the mind into silent awareness itself, which contains no learning nor ideas.

This can only be experienced for oneself, otherwise it seems like just another learned idea.


Xan

i would suggest it goes further than that. for instance at that point where you gain understanding through meditation - your mind is still functioning, concious and prevelant.

how we can suggest that is true is by the ability to learn and to know in that state. otherwise when you come out of meditation - you would not know what you just learnt. plus you must base this new found "awareness" - on a memmory of when you were meditating - i.e. belief again.

meditation puts your mind in certain direction to believe a certain way - to say that it represents "truth" or "knowing" or indeed "awareness" - is a belief.

i dont disregard meditation as a useful tool - in order to achieve what you want to achieve. i.e. the belief of clarity, or the belief of awareness, the belief of a "higher truth".

but the human condition is - is that its a belief either way. :smile:

During meditation your brain (and your body) is still active. I'd like to point out that we have around 100 billion neurons and 100's of trillions of synapses in the brain. It's kinda cheap to think the brain is not influencing one's mystical experience in any kind of way. Besides that, having mystical experiences requires us to interpreted the experiences. We rely on our cultural beliefs for that; people 'experience' specific deities, angels, and beings based on the books they've read, what they heard in church, what they like to hear etc.

Subjective 'spiritual' experiences cannot be a valuable tool to understand reality. If we seek truth the best method (though not flawless) is science, because it relies on repeatability and empiricism.
We know the earth orbits around the sun, and we know we need water to survive. Philosophical mental speculation is not going to change reality.

well science represents human observation of nature - so it never says anything is true. what i believe it represents is "logical justified belief".

you see you say the earth orbits the sun - how do we know that? evidence?? we see it on video?, we understand the theory? sure we do.

my point is that is actually still belief - it is accepting a belief that the evidence is representing truth and reality. we can call it "justified, logical belief" - yes. a belief none the less.

its not saying dont believe it because we are not sure as we can be.

like science - before stating what is truth and reality we should remember the principle of uncertainty. its not saying reality changes because we choose not to believe in it - merely what we "know" about "reality" - (if "reality" exists) is actually a belief in reality - and we can't be 100% sure of anything.

that is the human condition.

Everything is based on a belief....the belief that we are separate from God/Spirit, beyond belief is nothing and that is what is refereed to as Truth...in my opinion.

i think it would be fairer to leave it as everything is based on belief.

bringing in a belief of god existing/not existing in the first place is a belief - so whether seperate or not - both angles are beliefs.

can truth be "nothing" though? if there is "something" then "nothing" cant exist. lol.

now its a belief either way if something (anything) exists of course. :tongue:

next phase to work out is if belief exists and if you can be sure about that - then you have the basis for truth. :wink:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...3&postcount=80

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=103

Take all beliefs away....i still am no matter what you believe or I believe. Truth attempts to explain what that is. My belief that our true Self is God/spirit is just that....use a different word if those don't fit you, yet it changes nothing.

The human condition is such that it needs to see reality different than what it is. In whatever manner that works for the individual.
The individual expression of reality calls this truth and it is the reason there are so many "truths"......

The truth or reality is terrifying to the individual expression of reality known as the individual...because of the human condition of that expression.

To wake up is to see reality, not fantasy or more truths. Once reality is accepted, a new beginning happens for the indiviidual who is no longer plaqued by the human condition that all are born into.

you are personifying truth. truth doesnt attempt to explain anything. truth is truth.

i am not saying beliefs change truth or reality - as i am trying to avoid a quantumn physics discussion. lol.

i smell a belief in there! :tongue:

a human no longer plagued by the human condition?? - not plagued by seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or thinking? sounds kinda boring!

however, indeed a belief that what you experience is reality offers good advantages. :wink:

Understanding and learning from meditation comes after the meditation state, in returning to ordinary human awareness through the physical senses and the interpreting mind.

In silent meditation we experience the nature of reality, and ourselves... without thought.


Xan