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-   -   WHY IS IT SO HARD TO DEFINE SPIRITUALITY? (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=131284)

BigJohn 20-09-2019 03:42 AM

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO DEFINE SPIRITUALITY?
 
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


Good point.

BlueSkiez 20-09-2019 04:47 AM

Everyone's path in spiritually in different. Different paths same goals. I think. Same endings I suppose

Proteus 20-09-2019 04:54 AM

Because spirituality is not to be "defined."
It's to be EXPERIENCED.

ocean breeze 20-09-2019 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus
Because spirituality is not to be "defined."
It's to be EXPERIENCED.


How do you know you're experiencing spirituality if you can't even define it? There must be some idea of what something is to say you are or have experienced it.

Starman 20-09-2019 08:44 AM

Spirituality is the experience of pure divine spirit and that can not be defined. Once we have defined something
we have codified and boxed it, spirituality does not fit in a box, it is not a mental concept, and is beyond mental
construction. Spirituality is and experience of being filled by, and moved by, pure divine primordial spirit.

Once we define spirit we have transformed it into a religion. Religion is and attempt to codify spirit. Spiritual people
do not have to follow a religion but religion without spirituality is just dogma. True spirituality does not come from
the mind rather it comes from the heart, the core of our being. It is a very humble moment by moment thing in my opinion.

Proteus 20-09-2019 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocean breeze
How do you know you're experiencing spirituality if you can't even define it? There must be some idea of what something is to say you are or have experienced it.


Ah understand your point - but to 'define' spirituality implies some sort of finite nature, and the whole basis of spirituality is its infinite nature. How God is infinite etc etc - although, not to mention the various types of variations of types of spirituality and the different paths of spirituality that people takes.

Also, as you said - yes, there does indeed need to be "some idea of what something is to say you are or have experienced it."

With that said to have "some idea of what something is", is fine and is being open to that "some idea" of what something is. It doesn't mean that something or that "some idea" has to have a certain definition. To have "some idea" is to be open to the experience of spirituality, and not necessarily having "one idea" on what the "definition" is.

And again, because of that "openness" of what that "some idea" could be, is indeed what makes it difficult to define spirituality.

Starman 20-09-2019 09:06 AM

Spirituality is not objective, it is not something that you look at and say "I am having a spiritual experience."
Spirit is something that you go into, you give yourself to it, and it takes over. We become a silent observer
of our being, being used as and instrument of something greater than our ego.

We know because our heart knows, and in a spiritual experience we are in touch with, and are moving closer
to, our heart. We know intuitively. We do not control the spiritual experience rather we give ourselves to it
and it takes over. Our deeper being knows this experience intimately.

Greenslade 20-09-2019 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?

“The temple of the most high begins with the body which houses our life, the essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans, which was suppose to help people grow spiritually. Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High of Creation. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe, and each other…”
― Haile Selassie I

It was originally thought that Spirituality came first, that man began discovering the metaphysical aspects of his existence until along came religion, which was supposed to have been a pathway to Spirituality. From following the rules, regulations and rituals was supposed to come a Spiritual experience, like finding God by going to church on Sunday. Unfortunately, God made man and man made religion. Going to work on Sunday meant people were closer to God and therefore greater than those lesser mortals, in particular the atheists.

Spirituality has essentially become religion because people practice their Spirituality religiously. It has divided us both from ourselves and each other because it has become not our experiential existence but a way to escape it. We are no longer people who are Spiritual but we are Spiritual people.

Perhaps the question is not "Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?" but "What have people done with it, and what are the reasons?" The understandings lie within the reasons.

John32241 20-09-2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


Hi,

We all have a biased reality perception. If we better understood how the intellect conditiones itself it would help I suspect.

In many ways we are a product of our enviorment. Few are able to elevate them self away from that and think/reason objectively, as I see these things.

John

Proteus 20-09-2019 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starman
Spirituality is not objective, it is not something that you look at and say "I am having a spiritual experience."
Spirit is something that you go into, you give yourself to it, and it takes over. We become a silent observer
of our being, being used as and instrument of something greater than our ego.

We know because our heart knows, and in a spiritual experience we are in touch with, and are moving closer
to, our heart. We know intuitively. We do not control the spiritual experience rather we give ourselves to it
and it takes over. Our deeper being knows this experience intimately.


Right. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

weareunity 20-09-2019 05:32 PM

Hello all.
As a suggestion.

An awareness of being an interconnected part of all which is--and was and will be--initially, and then doing your best to live in harmony with that awareness. This removes separation, making the everyday spiritual and vice versa.

In a way this also removes any need for definition.

petex

Legrand 20-09-2019 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


On the top of a mountain there is only one summit for all to meet. But discussing from the base of the mountain on how to climb to the top there are infinite of possible paths to follow.

Same goes coming down the mountain, different paths will lead one to different places at the bottom of the mountain.

Very few have a full view of the mountain at the same time...

BigJohn 20-09-2019 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legrand
On the top of a mountain there is only one summit for all to meet. But discussing from the base of the mountain on how to climb to the top there are infinite of possible paths to follow.

Same goes coming down the mountain, different paths will lead one to different places at the bottom of the mountain.

Very few have a full view of the mountain at the same time...

PROFOUND!

As you approach a mountain, what you think is the top of the mountain, generally is not. Generally it is hard to see the top of the mountain till you are almost there.

I live in an area surrounded by at least one mountain range in each direction. One day I found a spot were each mountain range appeared to be of the same height.

Greenslade 21-09-2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus
Right. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

This is where it all starts to unravel, because most people don't take the time to understand the story they're telling themselves. We are not Spiritual beings, the phrase subconsciously suggests that we are subordinate to Spirituality because it comes first. Yes I know it's grammatically correct. Spirituality is a belief system and we are not our beliefs, nor are we who or what we believe ourselves to be. Spiritually it begins with "I Am" and anything after that is invented - as is "I am Spiritual." We are beings, an aspect of whose reality is the belief system that is Spirituality.

Spirituality doesn't define us, we define Spirituality and that's why it's so difficult to define Spirituality - we are looking for what defines ourselves. As humans we don't enjoy the human experience very much but that's really what makes us the embodiment of everything that is regarded as Spiritual. Forgiveness doesn't exist where there is nothing to forgive, empathy doesn't exist where nobody hurts inside and Unconditional Love is not unconditional where no conditions exist.

Perhaps Spirit Honours our Paths where we do not.

muffin 22-09-2019 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


Good point.



Good afternoon BigJohn :smile:

Your looking from a human point of view, have fun with that :biggrin:

And then your trying to get an arrangement on it, like thats going to happen :wink:

hallow 22-09-2019 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


Good point.

it's a big world out there, different backgrounds, and environments. Your spiritual path comparison to everyone looks like a world road map. Pick a road and take it. Any of them roads are going to create your character. I don't think anyone is 100% right or wrong. It's all up to you. Your always going to be right for you.

Jyotir 22-09-2019 02:56 PM





It is not really true that it is "hard to define spirituality", even if that premise makes for protracted and indeterminate discussion.

Spirituality can be and has been defined, importantly and significantly by its own masters, progenitors, and proponents.
Not a big deal unless it’s important to make it so difficult for one’s (ego’s) diversionary agenda that conveniently ignores the former, and focuses primarily on the limited means and methods of the latter.

Definition of spirituality:
In human beings (individually or collectively), spirituality is the awakening to the possibility of, and subsequent undertaking of a conscious deliberate acceleration of the evolution of consciousness occurring generally in Nature, by some practice or method which is effective for accomplishing that intention, e.g., Yoga, through the application of the self-conscious intelligent will.

Done.

And it doesn’t matter by which effective method. Truth is One, paths are many. Truth is both the way and the goal.
However, intrinsic to human life which is predominantly mental, there are some intermediate problems:

1) The mind rejects the definition because by nature, it doesn’t want to be spiritual. Spirituality represents too much of a sacrifice of status quo of the familiar acquired habits and prerogatives of superficial mind-bound limited life, regardless of how unsatisfying it is. The now developed mental faculty, the mind, reasons to remain untransformed as a ‘superior’ mode of being (because by its limited cognition, it is - or superficially seems to be), and this is the pre-eminent problem of human life. It’s a threat to the sovereignty of dominant ego-mind, which has developed its separative objective consciousness in many previous incarnations and has reached a culmination whereby post-awakening, it may then potentially consciously surrender to higher principle within, which is what spirituality is.

2) Disagreement about various approaches and forms of practice appear to, (or, per #1, need to) invalidate the general premise or definition. The fact that there are many ways to practice and realize the goal and purpose of spirituality does not necessarily invalidate its possibilities or eventualities.

3) Similarly, an equivocation of the general unconscious cosmic evolution as spiritual, with what is the conscious application of the intelligent will in specific individuated human beings to accelerate the general process. They are not mutually exclusive to each other. Technically, the general evolutionary process is ‘spiritual’ in its procession, - but very very very slow. This is why the self-conscious opportunity to accelerate the general process, while also spiritual - is therefore especially spiritual as a concentration of the self-same tendency.


~ J


guthrio 22-09-2019 06:47 PM

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO DEFINE SPIRITUALITY?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


Good point.


Hello BigJohn,

Consider this answer to your excellent question, "Why is it so hard to define Spirituality?" as an analogy expressed this way, "The map of our definitions is not the territory of Reality".

....and here is the rub: The map can never be the territory, Itself, regardless how detailed or comprehensive the commonality or disparity there may be between belief systems.

Why?

As indicated in the 1st reference, "....because these "aspects", however named, are REALLY the Whole system acting AS IF IT WERE the "part" we, myopically and erroneously call it, to the EXCLUSION of the Whole, without which the "part" is not even ABLE to be manifested for our "inspection" and "description" or our "discussion" of it !"

....not even if the "part" of the Whole erroneously self-described as Man, says to himself, "that (whatever it is) is "its" name". Really?

Not Really! Because we have taught ourselves to accept the Undifferentiated Unnameable Reality as being thus differentiated, thus defined, and thus named...as if the maps CAN ACTUALLY BE the territory.

The MAP'S designations are MADE UP in order for us to pretend that there IS a "before" and an "after", "here" and "there", a "going away from...." and a "return to..." in order to justify support for a misinterpretation, all-too-prevalent in ALL our beliefs and language; the erroneous bifurcation of the observer from the observed in a Unitary Reality.

As excerpted from the 2nd reference:

"Physiological reality, take me literally... is a mirror, it is just a more complex mirror, a holographic mirror... a multi-dimensional mirror, so that you don't always recognize all the reflections as you, but believe me... they are... .all the reflections are you, and I mean literally every object, person, place and thing, every situation... every circumstance, every moment of time and space is you being reflected back to yourself, from the particular point of view you chose to express at that particular moment. The idea therefore, is to understand, that what you will always discover, will simply be All That Is expressing itself through the unique portion of All That Is you were created to be. Remember the Second Law: "The One is All, the All are One". Every component of the All That Is, all of you... all of us, every individuated being... every individuated concept, is the whole expressing itself as a part. Important point... I'll rewind that and repeat it, because we understand that you have been trained to think segregationally, sometimes individuals on your planet may miss the point, all of you are, yes... a part of the whole, but as a part of the whole, you are the Whole expressing Itself as "a part of the whole". Big difference than just thinking of yourself as a part of the whole without the other side. You have to understand yourself holographically, it is this and that... not this or that. So, you are the part... you are the whole, you are both one and the same, but expressing the whole as a part."

Ironically, we remain absolutely free to continue "part-itioning" :smile: each other's "definitions of Spirituality " even while each of us actually IS the Whole "territory" and even to call ourselves and our way of thinking as (fill in the "adherent's" blank) all the WHILE trying to MAP it, and even living it, as if the Whole were parts so named! Really? :confused:

Really!

How? Because the Whole is All That Is, whether defined, mapped, named.....or not! :hug3:

Hope this, and the references below, helps....

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...1&postcount=77

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...1&postcount=75

Greenslade 24-09-2019 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
How? Because the Whole is All That Is, whether defined, mapped,

Well yes, and if there is nothing that is not part of the whole then there is nothing that is not Spiritual. Even ego, or the bad guys, or those that trespass against us. Perhaps a better question is what are the reasons we're trying to define it?

guthrio 24-09-2019 05:07 PM

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO DEFINE SPIRITUALITY?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
Well yes, and if there is nothing that is not part of the whole then there is nothing that is not Spiritual. Even ego, or the bad guys, or those that trespass against us. Perhaps a better question is what are the reasons we're trying to define it?


Brother Greenslade,

I can think of no better example to answer your question than your own excellent signature message: "Take your legacy and understand what has gone before. Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."

So what has gone before? As indicated in the 1st reference, The Game of Life : Creating Your Own Reality,

"Imagine that you are about to participate in an interactive role-playing game. There are rules in this game that everyone agrees to: what goes up must come down, day is followed by night, if you touch a flame it will burn you, etc. etc. You get to choose the character you play beforehand; shall I be black or white, Australian or American, male or female? You might even choose to meet up with others in the game, which is tricky because you won’t necessarily remember them when you see them. To enter the game, you must be “born” and become completely helpless. You must forget everything you know and start all over again. You are given sets of rules by the “older” players which you learn as you go along. After a given time, you are declared an “adult” by the other players and are sent out on your own. The thing is, after a while, you become so involved, so completely immersed in the personality of the character that you are playing in this game, that you forget who you really are. You forget that you’re even in a game, and you begin to believe that the game is all there is. Now, you still get to decide everything that happens to your character, which you do constantly, but as a player who has now totally identified with the character you have chosen to portray, you begin to believe that everything that transpires is happening by “chance” or “fate”. When the character you play goes to sleep, you return to your real self. This is also your opportunity to plan ahead and manifest the character's desires and wishes. When the character later awakens, it is with the belief that he/she was simply “dreaming”.

How? I am also reminded that the signature of my Friend, Miss Hepburn, contains the following quote from Lahiri Mahasaya: "Meditate unceasingly that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence". Does that mean sitting around meditating? To my mind, it does not and cannot, because the Infinite Essence lives on this plane of existence AS US in action, in a continuation of the aforementioned "game". I believe that the Creator's own intent continues to be to participate as US, in this multi-dimensional, multi-incarnational, multi-"face"-eted game of discovering new ways to know Itself....from Alpha to Omega....ad infinitum.

It seems the part that is all-to-often overlooked in the "roles" we're playing is that the aforementioned "game" includes the ever-present opportunity for us to remember, but more importantly, to actualize our own awakening AT ANY TIME, in these very roles by remembering that:

We have always been Who we truly are, awaiting our own remembrance on Earth that I AM THAT I AM as in Heaven. Guthrio

....at which point, we will realize, as I've stated in another post to you, that we've never left Heaven, at all! per the 2nd reference, replying to your earlier statement: "You have always been here." Kosh. :smile:

Which brings me to this part of your superb signature, "Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."

As the Infinite Essence, we have always been in Love and Light in which every moment remains an open invitation for ourselves to faithfully actualize the promise that this is so....now. :hug3:

Hear from one who has actualized that promise in the following testimony describing the very experience OF HOW each of us WILL WAKE UP from the "forms" we occupy in "this" Earthly portion of the "game" to another equally real "form". It describes the reunion of a resurrected guru, Sri Yukteswar, (himself a disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya), who returned to Earth, for a brief interlude with his own former disciple, Paramahansa Yogananda, from a higher vibratory sphere called Hiranyaloka. Here's an excerpt from the 3rd source below:

"O Master", Yogananda said, "I was grieving so deeply about your death!" "Ah, wherein did I die? Isn't there some contradiction?" said Sri Yukteswar, eyes twinkling with love and amusement. Sri Yukteswar goes on to say to his former disciple, "You were only dreaming on earth; on that earth you saw my dream-body. Later you buried that dream-image. Now my finer fleshly body--which you behold and are even now embracing rather closely!--is resurrected on another finer dream-planet of God. Someday that finer dream-body and finer dream-planet will pass away; they too are not forever. All dream-bubbles must eventually burst at a final wakeful touch. Differentiate, my son Yogananda, between dreams and Reality!"

See the words, in the last reference, that personally changed my life, describing the mastery with we are each endowed, by the Creator, "I wish to call your attention more fully to the fact that man in his right domain is limitless, knows no limit of time or space. Man, when he knows himself, is not obliged to toil wearily along for five days to accomplish ninety miles. Man in his right estate can accomplish any distance, it matters not the magnitude, instantly. A moment ago I was in the village from which you departed five days ago. What you saw as my body still reposes there. Your associate, whom you left in that village, will tell you that, until a few moments before four o'clock, I conversed with him, stating that I would go to greet you as you would arrive here about this hour..."

This "version of Earth" is a SCHOOL in which we practice BEING the Spiritual Progeny we truly are, and have always been, as the Masters you will read about in the last reference, have done. It is our birthright to.....

Awaken...

The Creator's dreams are what WE experience as Reality...

The Creator is ALL THERE IS to BE anyone or anything...

The Creator is Who we, and each other, are....

....as the "game" continues.... :hug3:

Reference: http://www.the-office.com/seth/

Reference:http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...2&postcount=60

Reference: https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chapter-43/

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...44&postcount=1 Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East by Baird T. Spaulding

JustBe 25-09-2019 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?
You would think there would be much commonality between belief systems
but it appears there is is a lot of polarization. How can this be?


Good point.


People hold belief systems that all differ in the definition of their spirituality mainly because beliefs ‘🌷box’ in the belief as the Definition. To an open minddd explorer who sees spirituality as a playground to explore, it’s never something fixed. It’s the awareness of identifying through the self understanding more directly what one is experiencing. In my view in this way, it’s not something one can define as ‘somethjng’ But more what you become as that experience. In the end the true state simply understands the bigger picture of itself that is often polarised by the age of reasoning. If all adults were to reconnect with their inner child, be in wonder and awe, like a child open in this way of their early years, thenspirituality wouldn’t even need defining. It wouldn’t need to be seperate as something one seeks out to reclaim.

Azurr0 26-09-2019 05:10 PM

Jesus Christ people, before you open a thread, try searching if the same question has been asked before, this is the third thread with the same name in a period of a couple of months. It is literally on the second page of this subforum. And like I said there:
Spirituality simply means the capacity to contact and get help from cosmic spiritual energies. It is pretty self explanatory, the spiritual realm is the realm of energies - spirituality becomes the ability to cooperate with them.
Researching different states of consciousness, going on what people call the spiritual journey, if it does not involve contact with energies, this is called mysticism. Therefore, most people here are aspirants or aspiring mystics, they are not spiritual.

guthrio 26-09-2019 08:40 PM

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO DEFINE SPIRITUALITY?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
Brother Greenslade,

I can think of no better example to answer your question than your own excellent signature message: "Take your legacy and understand what has gone before. Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."

So what has gone before? As indicated in the 1st reference, The Game of Life : Creating Your Own Reality,

"Imagine that you are about to participate in an interactive role-playing game. There are rules in this game that everyone agrees to: what goes up must come down, day is followed by night, if you touch a flame it will burn you, etc. etc. You get to choose the character you play beforehand; shall I be black or white, Australian or American, male or female? You might even choose to meet up with others in the game, which is tricky because you won’t necessarily remember them when you see them. To enter the game, you must be “born” and become completely helpless. You must forget everything you know and start all over again. You are given sets of rules by the “older” players which you learn as you go along. After a given time, you are declared an “adult” by the other players and are sent out on your own. The thing is, after a while, you become so involved, so completely immersed in the personality of the character that you are playing in this game, that you forget who you really are. You forget that you’re even in a game, and you begin to believe that the game is all there is. Now, you still get to decide everything that happens to your character, which you do constantly, but as a player who has now totally identified with the character you have chosen to portray, you begin to believe that everything that transpires is happening by “chance” or “fate”. When the character you play goes to sleep, you return to your real self. This is also your opportunity to plan ahead and manifest the character's desires and wishes. When the character later awakens, it is with the belief that he/she was simply “dreaming”.

How? I am also reminded that the signature of my Friend, Miss Hepburn, contains the following quote from Lahiri Mahasaya: "Meditate unceasingly that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence". Does that mean sitting around meditating? To my mind, it does not and cannot, because the Infinite Essence lives on this plane of existence AS US in action, in a continuation of the aforementioned "game". I believe that the Creator's own intent continues to be to participate as US, in this multi-dimensional, multi-incarnational, multi-"face"-eted game of discovering new ways to know Itself....from Alpha to Omega....ad infinitum.

It seems the part that is all-to-often overlooked in the "roles" we're playing is that the aforementioned "game" includes the ever-present opportunity for us to remember, but more importantly, to actualize our own awakening AT ANY TIME, in these very roles by remembering that:

We have always been Who we truly are, awaiting our own remembrance on Earth that I AM THAT I AM as in Heaven. Guthrio

....at which point, we will realize, as I've stated in another post to you, that we've never left Heaven, at all! per the 2nd reference, replying to your earlier statement: "You have always been here." Kosh. :smile:

Which brings me to this part of your superb signature, "Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."

As the Infinite Essence, we have always been in Love and Light in which every moment remains an open invitation for ourselves to faithfully actualize the promise that this is so....now. :hug3:

Hear from one who has actualized that promise in the following testimony describing the very experience OF HOW each of us WILL WAKE UP from the "forms" we occupy in "this" Earthly portion of the "game" to another equally real "form". It describes the reunion of a resurrected guru, Sri Yukteswar, (himself a disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya), who returned to Earth, for a brief interlude with his own former disciple, Paramahansa Yogananda, from a higher vibratory sphere called Hiranyaloka. Here's an excerpt from the 3rd source below:

"O Master", Yogananda said, "I was grieving so deeply about your death!" "Ah, wherein did I die? Isn't there some contradiction?" said Sri Yukteswar, eyes twinkling with love and amusement. Sri Yukteswar goes on to say to his former disciple, "You were only dreaming on earth; on that earth you saw my dream-body. Later you buried that dream-image. Now my finer fleshly body--which you behold and are even now embracing rather closely!--is resurrected on another finer dream-planet of God. Someday that finer dream-body and finer dream-planet will pass away; they too are not forever. All dream-bubbles must eventually burst at a final wakeful touch. Differentiate, my son Yogananda, between dreams and Reality!"

See the words, in the last reference, that personally changed my life, describing the mastery with we are each endowed, by the Creator, "I wish to call your attention more fully to the fact that man in his right domain is limitless, knows no limit of time or space. Man, when he knows himself, is not obliged to toil wearily along for five days to accomplish ninety miles. Man in his right estate can accomplish any distance, it matters not the magnitude, instantly. A moment ago I was in the village from which you departed five days ago. What you saw as my body still reposes there. Your associate, whom you left in that village, will tell you that, until a few moments before four o'clock, I conversed with him, stating that I would go to greet you as you would arrive here about this hour..."

This "version of Earth" is a SCHOOL in which we practice BEING the Spiritual Progeny we truly are, and have always been, as the Masters you will read about in the last reference, have done. It is our birthright to.....

Awaken...

The Creator's dreams are what WE experience as Reality...

The Creator is ALL THERE IS to BE anyone or anything...

The Creator is Who we, and each other, are....

....as the "game" continues.... :hug3:

Reference: http://www.the-office.com/seth/

Reference:http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...2&postcount=60

Reference: https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chapter-43/

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...44&postcount=1 Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East by Baird T. Spaulding


Brother Greenslade,

I regret inadvertently maligning the practice of meditation in my earlier statement. it is never to be equated with "just sitting around". As correctly practiced by many in this world, those who have benefited from regular connection of their Spirits with the Creator's Infinite Essence....would certainly testify to its effectiveness.

.....and I highly doubt they would have any need to define, or to be told what Spirit is. :smile:

r6r6r 28-09-2019 01:46 PM

....Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space.....
 
Quote:

BigJohn--Why is it difficult to define Spirituality?


Spirit-1 is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept and ego ergo spirit-of-intent.


------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------

Spirit-2 is Observed Time { /\/\/\/ sine-wave } physical/energy via fermions, bosons and any collection thereof, ex biological/soul life:biggrin:, Earth, Solar System Galaxies, Universe,

Spirit-3, metaphysical-3, is positive shape geodesic ( ) curvature ( ) of Gravity ( ),

Spirit-4, metaphysical-4, Dark Energy is negative shaped geodesic curvature of Dark Energy )(.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Spirituality is those actions and thoughts that are in support of all of the above and the ecological systems that sustain them all.

Seems simple to me. Maybe I'm just a simpleton.:smile:

....Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space.....

BigJohn 29-09-2019 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
I can think of no better example to answer your question than your own excellent signature message: "Take your legacy and understand what has gone before. Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."


and

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
As the Infinite Essence, we have always been in Love and Light in which every moment remains an open invitation for ourselves to faithfully actualize the promise that this is so....now.


guthrio, you have condensed down several enlightening points from Greenslade.

BigJohn 29-09-2019 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
Spirituality doesn't define us, we define Spirituality and that's why it's so difficult to define Spirituality - we are looking for what defines ourselves. As humans we don't enjoy the human experience very much but that's really what makes us the embodiment of everything that is regarded as Spiritual. Forgiveness doesn't exist where there is nothing to forgive, empathy doesn't exist where nobody hurts inside and Unconditional Love is not unconditional where no conditions exist.

Perhaps Spirit Honours our Paths where we do not.

Thanks for your fine insight, as usual.

Greenslade 29-09-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustBe
People hold belief systems that all differ in the definition of their spirituality mainly because beliefs ‘��box’ in the belief as the Definition. To an open minddd explorer who sees spirituality as a playground to explore, it’s never something fixed. It’s the awareness of identifying through the self understanding more directly what one is experiencing. In my view in this way, it’s not something one can define as ‘somethjng’ But more what you become as that experience. In the end the true state simply understands the bigger picture of itself that is often polarised by the age of reasoning. If all adults were to reconnect with their inner child, be in wonder and awe, like a child open in this way of their early years, thenspirituality wouldn’t even need defining. It wouldn’t need to be seperate as something one seeks out to reclaim.

Exactly. I don't like defining Spirituality in the same way as I try to identify with being a Spiritual person, because it does become like the box I choose to jump into. Definitions and attachments belong to the egoic mind.

It's been said that religion was the pathway to Spirituality and that seems to be true. By going to church on Sunday or following other religious practices people can have a Spiritual experience that - for me anyway - seems to happen in the Soul rather than anywhere else. For me personally they happen in 'real Life' - as in what you're saying here.

Reading this is a Spiritual moment, so thank you.

Greenslade 29-09-2019 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azurr0
Jesus Christ people, before you open a thread, try searching if the same question has been asked before, this is the third thread with the same name in a period of a couple of months. It is literally on the second page of this subforum. And like I said there:
Spirituality simply means the capacity to contact and get help from cosmic spiritual energies. It is pretty self explanatory, the spiritual realm is the realm of energies - spirituality becomes the ability to cooperate with them.
Researching different states of consciousness, going on what people call the spiritual journey, if it does not involve contact with energies, this is called mysticism. Therefore, most people here are aspirants or aspiring mystics, they are not spiritual.

“The temple of the most high begins with the body which houses our life, the essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans, which was suppose to help people grow spiritually. Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High of Creation. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe, and each other…”
― Haile Selassie I



While I agree with you, Haile Selassie says it best. Sorry and all that.

Greenslade 29-09-2019 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
Brother Greenslade,

I can think of no better example to answer your question than your own excellent signature message: "Take your legacy and understand what has gone before. Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."

So what has gone before? As indicated in the 1st reference, The Game of Life : Creating Your Own Reality,

"Imagine that you are about to participate in an interactive role-playing game. There are rules in this game that everyone agrees to: what goes up must come down, day is followed by night, if you touch a flame it will burn you, etc. etc. You get to choose the character you play beforehand; shall I be black or white, Australian or American, male or female? You might even choose to meet up with others in the game, which is tricky because you won’t necessarily remember them when you see them. To enter the game, you must be “born” and become completely helpless. You must forget everything you know and start all over again. You are given sets of rules by the “older” players which you learn as you go along. After a given time, you are declared an “adult” by the other players and are sent out on your own. The thing is, after a while, you become so involved, so completely immersed in the personality of the character that you are playing in this game, that you forget who you really are. You forget that you’re even in a game, and you begin to believe that the game is all there is. Now, you still get to decide everything that happens to your character, which you do constantly, but as a player who has now totally identified with the character you have chosen to portray, you begin to believe that everything that transpires is happening by “chance” or “fate”. When the character you play goes to sleep, you return to your real self. This is also your opportunity to plan ahead and manifest the character's desires and wishes. When the character later awakens, it is with the belief that he/she was simply “dreaming”.


Dear Guthrio

For the main part yes, it is all about creating your own reality but when you look at some of the threads you can understand why. It's been said that we are Spirit in amnesia and that gives me a very different perspective. What happens when the perspective is put in the context of Life Purpose/Karmic Obligations though? You find that everything happens BECAUSE of you and nothing happens TO you. When the character awakens not only does he/she realise they were asleep and now they are awake, but they are also awake to the reasons they were asleep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
How? I am also reminded that the signature of my Friend, Miss Hepburn, contains the following quote from Lahiri Mahasaya: "Meditate unceasingly that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence". Does that mean sitting around meditating? To my mind, it does not and cannot, because the Infinite Essence lives on this plane of existence AS US in action, in a continuation of the aforementioned "game". I believe that the Creator's own intent continues to be to participate as US, in this multi-dimensional, multi-incarnational, multi-"face"-eted game of discovering new ways to know Itself....from Alpha to Omega....ad infinitum.

It seems the part that is all-to-often overlooked in the "roles" we're playing is that the aforementioned "game" includes the ever-present opportunity for us to remember, but more importantly, to actualize our own awakening AT ANY TIME, in these very roles by remembering that:

We have always been Who we truly are, awaiting our own remembrance on Earth that I AM THAT I AM as in Heaven. Guthrio

....at which point, we will realize, as I've stated in another post to you, that we've never left Heaven, at all! per the 2nd reference, replying to your earlier statement: "You have always been here." Kosh. :smile:

In the more recent series of Battlestar Galactica the human-like Cylons have a tenet that they repeat time and again - "All this has happened before, and it will happen again." This is essentially what's happening and is often the basis of reincarnation, we adopt the role of the aspirant in one incarnation and the master in another, and in that way we experience a multi-facetted Universe. Which is better than being one-dimensional, isn't it?

Yes we have always been who we truly are but then we choose amnesia in order to re-member.

And you have always been here too Guthrio, and you know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
Which brings me to this part of your superb signature, "Make a new tomorrow in Love, Light and Faith."

As the Infinite Essence, we have always been in Love and Light in which every moment remains an open invitation for ourselves to faithfully actualize the promise that this is so....now. :hug3:

Hear from one who has actualized that promise in the following testimony describing the very experience OF HOW each of us WILL WAKE UP from the "forms" we occupy in "this" Earthly portion of the "game" to another equally real "form". It describes the reunion of a resurrected guru, Sri Yukteswar, (himself a disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya), who returned to Earth, for a brief interlude with his own former disciple, Paramahansa Yogananda, from a higher vibratory sphere called Hiranyaloka. Here's an excerpt from the 3rd source below:

"O Master", Yogananda said, "I was grieving so deeply about your death!" "Ah, wherein did I die? Isn't there some contradiction?" said Sri Yukteswar, eyes twinkling with love and amusement. Sri Yukteswar goes on to say to his former disciple, "You were only dreaming on earth; on that earth you saw my dream-body. Later you buried that dream-image. Now my finer fleshly body--which you behold and are even now embracing rather closely!--is resurrected on another finer dream-planet of God. Someday that finer dream-body and finer dream-planet will pass away; they too are not forever. All dream-bubbles must eventually burst at a final wakeful touch. Differentiate, my son Yogananda, between dreams and Reality!"

See the words, in the last reference, that personally changed my life, describing the mastery with we are each endowed, by the Creator, "I wish to call your attention more fully to the fact that man in his right domain is limitless, knows no limit of time or space. Man, when he knows himself, is not obliged to toil wearily along for five days to accomplish ninety miles. Man in his right estate can accomplish any distance, it matters not the magnitude, instantly. A moment ago I was in the village from which you departed five days ago. What you saw as my body still reposes there. Your associate, whom you left in that village, will tell you that, until a few moments before four o'clock, I conversed with him, stating that I would go to greet you as you would arrive here about this hour..."

This "version of Earth" is a SCHOOL in which we practice BEING the Spiritual Progeny we truly are, and have always been, as the Masters you will read about in the last reference, have done. It is our birthright to.....

This is where the excitement comes in, a Spirituality that defies definition. Somewhere deep inside perhaps we have already realised that's who we truly are yet we know we haven't completed our mission just yet. There are still some things to do that are not about our awakening but the awakening of others - and yet they are one and the same.

Sometimes our greatest fear is not that we are a nobody, but that we are greater than even our wildest dreams. Yet when you feel that somewhere in the distance, just out of reach? With great power comes great responsibility and we have to be mature enough to understand that. Sometimes we're simply not ready for ourselves.


Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
Awaken...

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio

The Creator's dreams are what WE experience as Reality...

The Creator is ALL THERE IS to BE anyone or anything...

The Creator is Who we, and each other, are....

....as the "game" continues.... :hug3:

Reference: http://www.the-office.com/seth/

Reference:http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...2&postcount=60

Reference: https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chapter-43/

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...44&postcount=1 Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East by Baird T. Spaulding

There is a time and a place for everything, the Universe has to unfold in its own fashion and we along with it.

Or as Alan Watts said, "If you are Spiritual you are God playing at being not God."

It doesn't bother me too much about how awake or asleep I am, I've worked in mental health so I understand how different realities can be. What interests be is the reason I've chosen them and one of the reasons has come to pass very recently. It's when you meet someone from your Soul Group in this plane of existence, when you meet them again for the first time. Then you know the reasons you dreamt that dream for the creator.

guthrio 29-09-2019 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
and



guthrio, you have condensed down several enlightening points from Greenslade.


BigJohn,

....I bask in the condensate of Greenslade's ever-enlightening points, which always help trigger my own....just as your original query "Why is it so hard to define spirituality?" has also done.

Thanks much :smile:

r6r6r 29-09-2019 04:54 PM

..Space ( Time *) i (* Time ) Space....
 
...Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space....


The truth exists for those who seek it. Few choose to seek the truth and even fewer accept truth when they see it.


Why is that?



Quote:

Originally Posted by r6r6r
Spirit-1 is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept and ego ergo spirit-of-intent.

------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------

Spirit-2 is Observed Time { /\/\/\/ sine-wave } physical/energy via fermions, bosons and any collection thereof, ex biological/soul life:biggrin:, Earth, Solar System Galaxies, Universe,

Spirit-3, metaphysical-3, is positive shape geodesic ( ) curvature ( ) of Gravity ( ),

Spirit-4, metaphysical-4, Dark Energy is negative shaped geodesic curvature of Dark Energy )(.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Spirituality is those actions and thoughts that are in support of all of the above and the ecological systems that sustain them all.

Seems simple to me. Maybe I'm just a simpleton.:smile:

....Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space.....


guthrio 29-09-2019 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
Dear Guthrio

For the main part yes, it is all about creating your own reality but when you look at some of the threads you can understand why. It's been said that we are Spirit in amnesia and that gives me a very different perspective. What happens when the perspective is put in the context of Life Purpose/Karmic Obligations though? You find that everything happens BECAUSE of you and nothing happens TO you. When the character awakens not only does he/she realise they were asleep and now they are awake, but they are also awake to the reasons they were asleep.

In the more recent series of Battlestar Galactica the human-like Cylons have a tenet that they repeat time and again - "All this has happened before, and it will happen again." This is essentially what's happening and is often the basis of reincarnation, we adopt the role of the aspirant in one incarnation and the master in another, and in that way we experience a multi-facetted Universe. Which is better than being one-dimensional, isn't it?

Yes we have always been who we truly are but then we choose amnesia in order to re-member.

And you have always been here too Guthrio, and you know that.

This is where the excitement comes in, a Spirituality that defies definition. Somewhere deep inside perhaps we have already realised that's who we truly are yet we know we haven't completed our mission just yet. There are still some things to do that are not about our awakening but the awakening of others - and yet they are one and the same.

Sometimes our greatest fear is not that we are a nobody, but that we are greater than even our wildest dreams. Yet when you feel that somewhere in the distance, just out of reach? With great power comes great responsibility and we have to be mature enough to understand that. Sometimes we're simply not ready for ourselves.


There is a time and a place for everything, the Universe has to unfold in its own fashion and we along with it.

Or as Alan Watts said, "If you are Spiritual you are God playing at being not God."

It doesn't bother me too much about how awake or asleep I am, I've worked in mental health so I understand how different realities can be. What interests be is the reason I've chosen them and one of the reasons has come to pass very recently. It's when you meet someone from your Soul Group in this plane of existence, when you meet them again for the first time. Then you know the reasons you dreamt that dream for the creator.


Brother Greenslade,

Thank you for this and every meeting of our Spirits in this plane of existence, including this one experienced, once again, in this dream called "Spiritual Forums". :smile:

Excerpted from Seth's book, "The Nature of Personal Reality": "Interactions with others do occur, of course, yet there are none that you do not accept or draw to you by your thoughts, attitudes, or emotions. This applies in each area of life. In your terms, it applies both before life and after it. In the most miraculous fashion are you given the gift of creating your experience." Reference: https://archive.org/stream/PdfsSethM...ality_djvu.txt

....which ironically, just now made me wonder if Alan Watts ever asked himself "what would happen when God and not-God meet in the "gift of the present?"

God only knows! :hug3:

r6r6r 29-09-2019 05:26 PM

..Space ( Time *) i (* Time ) Space....
 
....Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space.....


..Space(Time *) present (* Time ) Space....


In-Spiration <----/\/\/----Past

Past------------>\/\/\--->Ex{ Out }Spiration


Cosmic Trinity > Sub-trinity > local trinity


.0,...3,...6,...9,.12,.15, 18{ quarks }
......21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36 kinds of quark.


0, 3, 6 electrons and 6 anti-electrons.


0, 3, 6 nutrinos and 6 anti-neutrinos


0, 3 weak forces W-, W+ Z0,


0, 3, 9 potentional sub-nuclear strong forces { gluons } with only 8 being manifest



The existence of reality is not to be avoided and/or disguised just because the human ego cannot handle the truth of our existence.


Seek and we will find the truth.





Quote:

Originally Posted by r6r6r
...Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space....

The truth exists for those who seek it. Few choose to seek the truth and even fewer accept truth when they see it.

Why is that?


athribiristan 29-09-2019 05:31 PM

Spirituality is the evolution from animal to God.

r6r6r 29-09-2019 05:52 PM

..Space ( Time *) i (* Time ) Space....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athribiristan
Spirituality is the evolution from animal to God.



Spirituality is the inclusion of all as a Unified whole, that, in-turn does not exclude consideration of each and every part of the whole as relevant and significant in its existence, irrespective of length of time they exist.

....Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space.....

The all;

1} has a finite occupied space integrity, and,

2} is not exclusive of,

.....3} macro-infinite space, and or as,

.....4} a concept of infinity or others.

We do not exclude the metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts/ego only the false narratives they present as truth.

Spirituality seeks truth. Not complicated to grasp, yet so difficult for many to accept.

Why do some humans fear truth some of the time?

guthrio 29-09-2019 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r6r6r
...Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space....


The truth exists for those who seek it. Few choose to seek the truth and even fewer accept truth when they see it.


Why is that?


r6r6r,

Admittedly, my own answer hinges on being utterly unfamiliar with the mathematical metaphor(s) you utilize. I do remember, however, in other exchanges we've had here on SF, that you have a quirky sense of humor, which always gets me interested in whatever else is said.....

Though I'm able to analogize the relationships as mirrored depictions of yin-yang inter-dependencies (I believe I got that part right) Right?

Would the negatively-oriented universe(s) have their own counterparts of dark energy and dark matter, as well....in the same manner in which you have described Spirituality, above?

Could you opine why the typical positron-electron entanglement is mutually destructive, each ostensibly carriers of "charge" which cancel one another in "this" positively-oriented universe(s)...in such environment(s)?

Just thinking that there must be a reason you feel so strongly about defining Spirituality in the mathematical medium you so favor....

I have never asked questions like these, so feel free to ignore my ignorance of the mathematics involved!

P.S. This just popped into my head for some strange reason: Wouldn't inhabitants of a "charged" Universe always consider an "other" Universe's inhabitants as consisting of "oppositely" charged quanta? (see reference) :smile:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=100

BigJohn 29-09-2019 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by athribiristan
Spirituality is the evolution from animal to God.

REALLY GOOD POINT
I have to think about this.

BigJohn 29-09-2019 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthrio
Could you opine why the typical positron-electron entanglement is mutually destructive, each ostensibly carriers of "charge" which cancel one another in "this" positively-oriented universe(s)...in such environment(s)?

Lets see...... we are talking about W and Z bosoms, weak force, etc.
The math behind these subjects should be interesting.

neil 29-09-2019 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r6r6r
...Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space....


The truth exists for those who seek it. Few choose to seek the truth and even fewer accept truth when they see it.


Why is that?


Sure the truth exist, However the question remains, do you yourself think that you have the truth, at this moment, or ever will.

guthrio 30-09-2019 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
Lets see...... we are talking about W and Z bosoms, weak force, etc.
The math behind these subjects should be interesting.


BigJohn,

As W and Z bosoms, these subjects would indeed be "titillating", yes? (I know you meant bosons):smile:

I wonder if there is a yin-yang relationship here, as well, for r6r6r's consideration?

Who knew Spirituality could be so much fun?


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