Brother Greenslade,

It is always interesting to me to ascertain how difficult it seems (for me) to resist applying perceptual maps to The Reality which is actually beyond the reach of descriptions, even those comprising our respective "cups of tea", no matter how well articulated! :smile:

I am happy to be reminded by your words how necessary it is (for me) to "empty the cup", too often over-filled with my own descriptions, models, maps, matrices, and methods masquerading as the "best" means to experience the "way It is".

I am also reminded that, except as metaphors and analogies, there are no Samurai's that dream it/he is a butterfly or butterflys dreaming the reverse, or dimensions or 'planes of existence'...because the map, of our definitions, metaphors, or analogies, is not the territory, of Reality. Nor even this analogy of It. :tongue:

As WeAreUnity states so eloquently, as excerpted from his answer, above, to the OP's question, "Why is it so hard to define Spirituality?":

"As a suggestion. An awareness of being an interconnected part of all which is--and was and will be--initially, and then doing your best to live in harmony with that awareness. This removes separation, making the everyday spiritual and vice versa. In a way this also removes any need for definition. petex"

His suggestion points to a way (for me) to remember the importance of emptying myself...as I AM "full-fills' Its purpose for creating vessels to fill with Itself...though even when "the cup runneth over", It eternally remains I AM THAT I AM.

My dear Guthrio


For the most part for us humans it's going to come down to your perceptual maps, that's really what beliefs systems are. Even the belief that "I am that I am" is an attempt to bring that which is beyond the reach of descriptions into descriptiveness. Or define the undefinable.

But what we are not is of the ego/mind/brain mechanism and if there is a perceptual 'ultimate' then isn't an "I" not a definition itself, a model or any of the other things you've described? There is no 'I' without a 'you', the word itself becomes meaningless.

We re the Universe experience itself, trying to figure itself out and for all its experiencing and figuring out it knows that there is yet more to experience and figure out.

As Bashar said,
"If you can think it, it exists. If it doesn't exist, how can you think it?"

All of those things are in your reality, everything that over-fills your cup. The question is though, how do they exist in your reality?

If I am the Samurai that dreams he is a butterfly, if I am the butterfly that dreams it is a Samurai??? If I am both??? You see, before you can deny that the butterfly that thinks it is a Samurai exists you have already acknowledged its existence.

It eternally remains I Am, which is an acknowledgement that "I" - consciousness, "Am" - exists - and by extension everything that we are conscious of. We need those perceptual maps to understand from the mind/brain perspective so we can escape them.

Consciousness encompasses.

Brother Greenslade,

...you are so right! Consciousness encompasses, whether named, dreamed, denied, perceived, acknowledged, understood or misunderstood. From all-encompassing Consciousness there is no escape because Consciousness is all there is, to be anything we, or Samurai's or butterflies, or Gurus, or Friends say it is....and Infinitely more. :smile:

And that, my dear Guthrio, is the beginning of it all. There is nothing that does not exist and there is nothing that is not consciousness, and the only real question is what are the reasons we think otherwise? But even in the thinking otherwise a consciousness is emergent anyway so you can't really escape it if you tried.