Religion and Spirtuality
 

Hello,

I may be going out on a limb here, but something has been buzzing around in my mind.

I come across some people who find contagion with religion, yet will claim to be spiritual. Also, come across those that follow a religious practice and live life in a spiritual manner.

So, to clarify my thoughts. To me, religion is spiritual teaching of some kind. It has its practices and belief in a higher power. Seems Spirituality does too.

God, source, universe, I Am, mystery, and so on, all seem to point to something or an energy that is creative and eternal.

Higher self, Holy Spirit, soul, and so on seems to point to a connection to the eternal.

Now I understand religion is human made, IMO. Things done in its name, not all has been beneficial. Isn't it still teaching a Spiritual outlook? How much of Spirituality understandings are created by us?

I feel creating this thread is entering a delicate area, for ones faith and beliefs can be a personal thing. So not looking to knock either.

Just that I see more similarities then differences. I do not perticipate in church, temples, or the like. I still find truths in many of teachings out there and do little rituals at times of my own.

So, ask what do you find to be similar and/or different in regards to Religion and Spirituality?

Please be respectful in responding, thank you.

I would say the difference is that religion is when you believe in someone else's experiences and spirituality is having your own experience.

...And that belief is a form of "having your own experience" too - as a partial identification with some consciousness that is recognized. And to be recognized it has to be within as well.




~ J

To me it is a confusion of the idea of religion with the reality of religion.

The stated goals of religion are usually very spiritual, but in practice religion far too often serves mainly as a social institution and group identification. It is for this reason I say spirituality is personal while religion is social - because that is what I actually observe.

.

Good afternoon Moonglow :smile:

Going out on a limp or jumping on thin ice, you learn things :biggrin:

Both have there merits and both have been watered down over time and thru overuse, causing confusing.

Hello,

Finding it Is what resonates with in.

This I feel can be found through both religion and other spiritual practices.
For what is the difference between deep prayer and meditations?

For me, it has been what has been established through the teachings and practices. Is it what is established or in what ways it is used that creates the faith/trust/knowing?

The church I disagree with its view points on some issues, so don't go.
Find some things under Spirtuality I also do not resonate with, so put it aside.

So yes, experience does bring understanding, but feel also it is what rings true with in.

Yes, can relate that if one is to be dedicated to something or deepening ones understanding that it takes more then just going through the motions, IMO.

Religion in some aspects may focus in on a certain aspect of a teaching, but this can also be found with in what is placed under spirituality as well.

So guess it is what one finds a center with and best guide him/her at present.
Atleast it seems that way for me.

Just wonder at times why there is so much conflict with it as well as some pretty inspirational stuff. For it seems in many ways they go hand in hand.

Thank you all

Hi muffin:smile:

Yes, simply put find true.

I don't get confused so much by it, anymore, as at times find myself scratching my head and wondering what all the fuss is about

I am also a curious fellow:biggrin:

I think it is because inevitably religion becomes a worldly entity. It is an organization, facing competition from other organizations, and being an organization depending on greater participation for it's survival. At that point, the focus moves from spiritual principles to power principles. That is where the shift occurs.

The inspirational stuff is still there, but the everyday workings of the church revolve around an entirely different agenda because it is an organization, essentially a business, that is dependent on income, participation, and popular support.

That is the difference.

.

Hi Kioma,

Well said.

You touch upon some issues I have with organized religion and when faith turns into a marketing tool of sorts, IMO.

Why I don't feel comfortable attending church at present.

There are those I've spoken with that say they are aware of those issues, but find grace in attending services. Which is fine with me if that is what works or gives one a center.

I had someone at work ask me if I go to church, I said no. When he asked why, I said that's my bussiness, for didn't want to get into it. He continually persued the issue with saying he didn't understand. Finally I said because the church, to me, seems to more interested in man then God. He agreed a bit on this and said he goes mainly for social reasons. Which I can understand, in a way.

Well, it is my issue and accept that.

But, when money, profit, power, and such gets involved then feel it can twist the intention of what is suppose to be taught or guided, IMO. Which I feel is some of what you bring up.

As far as one practicing, believing, and having faith in something feel it is personal and respected as such, if no harm is being promoted.

A tricky path at times.

Thank you.

Religion is about power and control. The creation of orthodox Christianity by Constantine in the 3rd century is a good example. It was seen as another arm of control over an increasingly sprawling and uncontrollable Roman empire.

Conflicts between religions occur because they're founded by people who come into power. It's the power that's in conflict.

Operationally religions must be imposed on populations to be effective, achieved by coming up with a doctrine - the scriptures, the Holy Book - and inculcating them from birth. The imposing is about taking away individuals' responsibility for their spirituality; telling them what they must believe in and how to go about it. In some Holy Books like the Koran a follower's behaviour is closely regulated.
So it comes down to obeying the priests. If you don't you're heretic/apostate usually inviting punishments which were spectacular. The hope was to deter.

Most of these religions were intolerant and at times hostile. For some priceless and rather horrific examples look at the wars between Christendom and Islam; or those between African religions and Christendom during the slave centuries.

None of this fitted in with gnosticism or individual spiritual development. Some sects managed to preserve their work in clandestine ways like the alchemists and Africans in Europe and the USA.

So to me, spirituality has almost nothing to do with religion.

You could be spiritual to be religious but you're unlikely to be religious if you're individually spiritual.

Absolutely agree.

.

Hi Lorelyen,

I can agree with what you present in the sense when religion is misused or misrepresented. Used to maintain and control power.

Brings some further thoughts on this

Feel though not all religions or spiritual practices do this. I have not come across a war between covens, for example lol. Tribes have and had their ritual and offerings as well. Some were pretty violent, some are not.

I also, feel some groups may not establish themselves as a religion per se, but still promote a certain way one should be in order to be spiritual or develop oneself.

Some are beneficial and can hold merit, while others seem to be more interested in making a profit off others issues ,Perhaps it is just a side of human nature for some, not. sure.

Yes, there are some deeds that need to be reckoned with and abuses occur. Such is the lust for power, suppose.

Still I feel religion in its essence is spiritual teaching of sorts. Feel if one is expressing/living a spiritual way or belief, whether it be his/her own or something others may follow as well, it is religious in a way. Just my thinking on this. Feel can be an individual choice whether or not to express it.

I am aware of some of the conflicts that have and are occurring in the name of whatever it may be. It is a waste and to me does not truly represent faith, but as you state power and will add greed.

Seems just like any other kind of knowledge, it is in how it is used, IMO.

Thank you for your thoughts.

All religion is to control and exert power? I doubt it.

Poison to release poison.

Raft used to cross the river.

etc.

There is not a tool in the world that can't be misused, or, applied properly.

Best not to generalize completely IMO.

H blooming tree,

You bring up a good point.

Can agree best not to generalize.


There are so many religions out there, not just the what may the more well known ones. Atleast, where I live Even these seem to have their sects .

I don't feel all are into control and power, many am not familiar with or practice, so attempt not to clump all into one pile.

There are reflections in history of abuses and misrepresentations in which some religions and/or certain beliefs were used to manipulate power, IMO. This is not to condemn religion, but reflect upon caution to be considered in how it may be used or misused, as I see it.

There are religious groups who also do great deeds in helping the poor and homeless. Many find true comfort and a center in life through religious practice.
Which for me is also spiritual, whether done in an established building or out in nature.., in a group or alone.

I was raised in a Catholic household. My disagreements are in regards to some of the church policies, so feel it is hypicritical of me to attend and support the church.
Just what I work through with myself.

It does bring up some wondering and couriosity in regards to religion because it is so much a part of this human experience. Meaning in the sense of how many may interact with one another.

So, explore a bit different sides and realize it can be a personal area to enter for some.

Just expressing some of my outlooks.
Agree, like any tool depends how it is applied.

Thank you

Y'know, you have to take the good with the bad, but most of all, be able to see the structure of it, and seeing as people are people foremost, their various religious identities are mere asides. However, the immense importance afforded to these 'named things' is disproportionate, and we start to see significant problems arising from that.

Yes - essentially, there is no need for anyone to adhere to imposed religious preconceptions, and it is important to think freely and be self-determining, and not succumb to mindless obedience.

That may be the case these days but in former times things weren't quite as simple. People don't study history so they can't spot the dangers prevailing today in certain "faiths". We no longer burn witches or flail recalcitrant slaves because most religions have lost their power. But there remain faiths that if they have their way will stamp on an individual's right to their personal spiritual development. (I see this happening in the UK and Europe, anyway). With the world in its current state it's impossible to guarantee there'll be no repeat of the religious past.

The point is that religion is a package deal that takes over an individual's spirituality; it becomes responsible for it, limiting that individual's chance of self development. Even the occult has its religious tendencies.

The aim is that one has to follow the doctrine - or one isn't part of that religion. The follower obeys the creed. That's how it is.
Sure, there are breakaways from the hub of most faiths but they are no less religious. You don't own your spirituality while you're "believing in" someone else's doctrine.

I appreciate that it's difficult for many to comprehend. Most of us were brought up from birth with some kind of "faith" and shaking that off can be a problem. Such shaking off usually happens when an alternative is presented prompting an individual to question the whole edifice of religion.

I largely agree with this view. Religion seems to serve as a foundation to our spirituality. At a certain stage in life when a person has been exposed to more information and experiences, they break free from religion and follow their own individual spirituality path. Some people never reach this stage and so they continue with religion until the end.

I think basically, the more importance religious thought is given the more problematic it becomes, so the dilemma is, if religious thought was given little to no importance, there would be no religion - which would be very distressing to religious folk because of the inherent identity crisis that reveals. This is not to disregard the importance of thought as a process, but to question if it is prudent to try to preserve thought as a 'thing'? I think the issue is the belief that the thought is true, and therefore important, but there is very fine line, if there is one at all, between 'spreading knowledge' and exercising power, for the mission to convert people to the 'faith' is the endeavour to convince and thereby influence others. This is indeed antithetical to free thought, and I suggest a more productive approach would be to support others on their spiritual discovery rather than convince them that you are right.

True indeed however my views were in response to the position set out in the opening post.

Hi Gem,

I feel that is the cautionary tale. When a group or individual becomes to rigid in their/his/her belief and/or outlook and feels or insist it is the only and " true" for everyone and act out in oppressive ways, in this mind set. (if you will) problem do arise, IMO

Thank you

There is no shortage of people, religious or secular, waiting for even the slightest opportunity to take advantage of others. That is physicality.

That is the real problem - religion in this context is just a pretext, so with that in actuality it has nothing to do with 'religion', other than taking advantage of such precepts as blind faith, and as I said I agree with Lorelyen that the reality of organized religion leads inevitably from focusing on spirit to focusing on power. It's a pretext - they will always have the rhetoric down of whoever they are trying to sucker, but by carefully observing cause and effect, rather than listening to their spiel, their real agenda makes itself apparent.

Those who crave power are drawn to places of authority, religious or secular, like moths to a flame, and it takes people who actually care about principles over power to be constantly vigilant and constantly fight against them. If they were to stop at any moment, all would be quickly overwhelmed.

This is the age-old fight of good versus evil.

.

These discussions of religion and spirituality seem to often digress from any sense of reality. The fact is that, in reality, they can comfortably co-exist. There is a naivete based on the assumption that we live our lives in a transparent and totally honest way without hypocrisy. This is simply not true. People who profess honesty when faced with starvation will steal to survive...they will cheat on their taxes, their spouses, they will praise dictators that they detest, they will declare that all is well when they are in tremendous pain and under great stress. In regards to religion they will belong to churches that dictate no birth control, no abortions and secretly follow neither dictate. None of these aberrations precludes them from having a genuine spirituality. There is no one that is all good just as there is no one that is all evil. People co-exist in bad marriages whether it might be a marriage to an individual, a religion, a relationship, a set of stated beliefs or a particular political party, form of government or a country.

There is a great amount of hypocrisy among advocates of spirituality as opposed to religion. It is this: they wish to make themselves separate from religion and in their next breath tell one that they must be accepting of and charitable to everyone that differs from them.....e.g. Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, fundamentals, black, white, Democrats, Republicans, rich, poor, the criminal, those that live in ivory towers.....etc. the list in endless. The greatest test, IMO, for anyone that aspires to be spiritual is to not allow themselves to be drawn into a philosophy of separation that seemingly elevates themselves into something that is nothing more than an elevation of their individual egos. And the greatest commandment is this: (you finish the blanks).......:)

I don't agree with this:

a) Lumping all religions into one type of modus operandi
b) Ascribing negative and limiting repercussions to people of all faiths in religions across the world
c) Not recognizing the reality and greys of a situation - who are you or I to say what works best for each person and what door will lead them to which path?

Often posts like these - including the huge trend of anti-guru "you don't have to do a thing and you are enlightened already" posts on this forum - have another implicit baseline - that is, that the poster's view and "spiritual religion" (of no religion or no path or no teacher) is the superior one.

i.e. they cannot posit inferiority of a sect/religion without trying to imply that their "freewheeling" "free thinking" "unguided" path is the better - i.e a newer better mousetrap or religion.

You say that things could happen again. Yes they could, and yes they do. This is life. All patterns re-engage and re-emerge, including in this latest fad of "you don't have to do a thing or follow anyone else but my own thoughts" thing.

Speaking to some traditions I am familiar with e.g. Buddhism, Sufism, some Christians, there is wide and immense range of freedom of thought so again, please do not cast all your stones in one direction, when you have no realistic understanding or experience of how they actually operate.

BT

Hi Moonglow

In complete respect of your position and your feelings. I don't go to Church nor could blindly just accept whatever is "told to me".

i.e. I could not subscribe to beliefs just because I am told, or because I want to believe it, or because it sounds sexy :smile:

What I do subscribe to and respect is that - even on these forums - there are many paths into Truth. People on this forum have reported instances of Light and Grace that came to them - opened their eyes to something new/different in this world.

Truth and Grace is unbeholden to, nor limited by, any dualistic forms or sects. Therefore, a Christian can come to know the true meaning of Jesus's message "seek and ye shall find", "the meek shall inherit the Earth", "heaven is within" - just as much as a lone hermit reflecting by the poolside.

Religions which encourage open reflection, meditation, prayer, silence, contemplation and kindness to the fellow wo/man is a good step in my books.

Of course there are sects or religions which aim to keep people from Truth - which is why I said we would probably have to filter at a more granular level before condemning all religions as out of touch and out for power. IMO.

BT

blossomingtree,

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Condemnation of others, both as groups or individuals, is usually based on the viewing of the lowest common denominator. It is the squeaky wheel that catches our attention and wrath. How do we judge those that keep their counsel? Too often, I am afraid, that we rely on guilt by association. Yet it is the ignorant ones who catch our attention. Would our judgement of Christianity be different if our exposure to it was through some fundamentalist or Christ? In a sense, the ones that irritate us and enrage us, are bestowing a gift on us as much as the ones we admire and find agreement with. Why? Because they offer a direct challenge to us. They challenge us to understand, forgive and love. How we respond becomes a measure of our spiritual development. Can we conclude as Christ did to say "forgive them for they know not what they do"? There is a lot of room for 'light' in enlightenment.....:)

I didn't mean you personally, but used 'you' generically.

Yes, as dogmatism means being fixed in belief and that's obviously problematic.I think what people miss is there is a difference between what is true and what is known in that the truth is momentarily perceived and knowledge is a symbolic representation. In the case of religion, if the symbols, iconography, rituals were removed, it would cease to exist - because religion can't actually be observed apart from its symbols and practices. The universe would not cease to be because it is immediate and primary to experience - like, no one has to do it. We become confused in thinking what we say is about nature is true of nature. That's the primal problem with 'knowledge'. We think our mental ways of understanding nature are the truth, and don't even realise they are our own imaginary productions. This makes it all but impossible to be religious and truthful at the same time - Though the religion could be a cultural practice which expresses the communal spiritual aspect of human beings.

Well, religions do all have the same basic structure, and they can be lumped together in that regard.

Indeed there is all grey areas, so we take the good with the bad in that sense.

We can't be free thinkers and religious believers at the same time, but that's not to say free thought is unguided. It's requires honesty rather than obedience.

I think we get led into the 'superior path' mentality, where self-determined discernment is the only 'way', so if people want a guru or a religious sect, then they needn't overlook their ability to discern honestly what actually motivates that direction, rather than be persuaded by others that it is the 'one true direction'. Self discernment is a primary essential freedom that enables any number of life directions, and freely discerned changes to such directions.

In the humanities there is a principle of informed consent, and consent only applies in the absence of coercion, so attempts to persuade others into conversions and so forth contravene the principle. I don't think religious orders can be sustained without coercion...

Please kindly enlighten me as to what you mean by basic structure


Disagree on that point....... Let's talk about Yoga - yoga encourages discipline, practice, deepening of spiritual awareness. In what way does that discourage free thinking?

Buddhism. Buddhism starts with the premise - know for yourself. That is, take this body of knowledge and apply/utilize it until you know what the Buddha knew. No need to worship, just practice. Until then, keep working. Meditation - beyond belief. Beyond thought, emotion, practice, or belief. How is that not free?

And how is that not free-er than "free thought" where the ego most often is the arbiter of what is right and not. To transcend ego, limited self, small self, selfishness, idiocy, whatever we want to call it, requires ascension beyond the limited self. In that way, to suggest that a person still mired in partial ignorance or/and delusion is capable of seeing through that themself - well it's possible, but it's also a long shot sometimes (Big caveat: depends on the individual)

Further, I want to be clear that I am not discounting nor would ever argue against aspirants who discover Truth for themselves - there are many. i.e. I don't disagree with you on that point either, and agree also that people should keep investigating for themselves and be honest in themselves.

On the flipside:

As to honesty, well certainly, this is also possibly related to an individual aspect of self. How many on here don't think they themselves are honest and how many on this forum seem to imply (implicitly or explicitly) that they are at a peak and there is no more to do, or/and they are in no need of a genuinely realized Master because let's face it, only "I" am the true arbiter of Truth.

Well as attractive as that is, that ain't the gold standard in genuinely realized traditions - whether they be religion based or not. (for similar reasons as above)


Indeed, agreed that joining a religion is not the one true direction. But if someone is throwing gold my way, I wouldn't discount that value either. I guess we might be talking about different cultures (yet you argue above that all religions can be "lumped together") as I see no disunity between freedom of thought and spiritual traditions. I also avoid and steer clear of any that don't support principles of freedom of thought, meditation, Gnosis, and kindness.


There is also the same that you could apply for all these arguments that religions are to be avoided, teachers are to be avoided, and even more strongly, that all religions want is to control people.

Granted I don't doubt that many do. It depends on the person and the teacher and the organization - there are specious individuals and many who have no spiritual insights, but claim status. But this is not everyone.

So again, the one sided arguments need balancing, in my opinion, as they are unfair - unfair to whom? Unfair to anyone who is genuinely interested in plumbing the depths of a religion whether that be Buddhism, Yoga, Neo-Advaita, Sufism, Spiritual Christianity (please don't mention the US Christian fundamentalists who scare me)

As to your last statement, you believe that all the people in Sufism, in monasteries around the world, in Buddhism, in Neo-Advaita, Yoga, are all coerced, Gem?

Ending with again - I don't disagree that not all people need religion by any means, or a teacher but it's so circumstantial and dependent on causes and conditions and the individuals' own propensity/spiritual insights/personality etc. that I wouldn't go all out for one path or the other. And I wouldn't discount that there are deeply realized teachers who have insights which could benefit. As to who/where that gold is, I guess I can only put that down to karmic causes and conditions. Nor would I disrespect people who have found their own Truth and happiness in even more belief based religions, so long as those contribute to inner peace, joy and care for people other than myself.

BT

Yes, I have heard of a Zen story where the Master insisted on keeping the person everyone else loathed around. It was good practice for all the other monks. Practice is much easier in practice (and on paper) than on the bumpy road at times.

I enjoy your posts and contributions on this forum, Molearner. Thank you for that.

Religion is for people that are frightened of going to hell and spirituality is for people that have already been there.

:thumbsup:

Name, discourse, symbols/iconography, ritual.



I didn't think yoga was a religion, and I think it's a great balance of mind/body/spirit.


I have practiced in the ashrams and there is a risk of becoming 'one of the herd' and there are certainly some cult-like aspects to some Buddhist sects. If we speak of the dhamma as taught by Gotama the buddha, then a person's religious persuasion is basically irrelevant - it makes no difference if one is Buddhist or not.


Yes, the right vs. wrong paradigm can't approach the spiritual subject.


OK... That's a very subtle subject area.


With the issue of doing, I would suggest stop doing and start noticing. It's basically the difference between willfulness and willingness.


It is without reference to tradition or religion.


Well religions have the same primary structure and are sustained by the same primary mechanisms, but the symbols, icons, discourses, defining rituals and beliefs vary considerably.


Personally I would suggest avoiding religion as 'the one and only true way' and ideas such 'believe in this of go to hell', or 'a guru is necessary' is highly coercive, and when it comes to the finer human qualities such self-awareness, insight, compassion, kindness, truthfulness etc., religion isn't necessary.


Those with a genuine interest probably should 'plumb the depths'. teehee.


Probably not all, but I have practiced in the more liberal ashrams, and there is a cultish brainwashing side to it, but as in all things, we have to take to good with the bad, and avoid becoming entrapped. In the traditions I involved myself with, a person's discernment was considered important, there was no attempt to convert anyone, and no expectation that people should believe the teachings. But, in these places, no religious practices or alternative meditations are permitted. There is still a risk of getting 'hooked' in places like that, and when going into ashrams like this, there is still the good and the bad of it, and it's very important to keep one's free thought - and then keep quiet about it.


Indeed. Well said.

Hi Molearner,

Yes, there is the survival aspect that can come with living. When pressed to keep oneself going, then does any of this really matter? May find comfort or guidance as to how to keep oneself together when faced with dire circumstances, but feel one will do what one has to to survive.

Flip side is there are stories and reflections of one helping another to get through it without asking whether one is this or that. He/she sees someone in need and offers the help.

When something becomes an organization, then would agree there may be elements that are created that form agendas that may stray away from what may benefit the people and into the preservation of the organization.

Perhaps this is the division that gets created in regards to religion/spirituality.
People get fixated upon the ideas, philosophy, and/or theology, IMO. So, although may be inspiring, to understand what these may be alluding to takes more then lip service, IMO.

Through all this, we are still human. With this comes all the aspects of being human while living this life. So, feel these tendacies to unite or divide in a way comes with the territory and perhaps it is figuring out what serves and what does not. Which may be found in many ways, whether religion, spirituality, or just living with neither.

Thank you

The mind works through images in order for me, or anyone, to find some sot of correlation with whatever it may be. So, without an image of some kind, would any of this make any sense or even be noticed?

What is religion or religious? Is it within the symbols, icons, theology, ect.? Or is it more of a faith/belief based created practice? Perhaps a combination?
What I am getting at is there is not a whole lot of difference between religion and spirituality, they both seem to run in similar fashion.

Truth seems something one may find with in oneself. For me, also what may change with in my mind according to what may be learned and understood at present. Yes, the Universe will do what it will regardless of what I may think or even "know".

There are so many practices out there, that I feel can not assume for all as to what may be true or not. Does a ritual really bring spirits/ancestors to aid in a hunt?(for example)

Rituals can bring focus to an intended goal. Whether it be to give thanks or to bring focus to the mind. Which yes can relate that these can be religious in their own way. So without them what do you have?

Will just add, I do see the communal benefits that can be form with some religious gatherings and worship.

Gem,

Fair points overall, the thing is there is no tool that can be not be misused and on the flip side every tool has potential to yield the correct results.

Religion, at least in Buddhist terms, since that is an area both you and I have some experience in, is a fine raft.

Tradition, culture, rituals including bowing all have their place and like all fine art, it's a fine piece of tapestry.

Obviously there will be some who mistake the forest for the trees or is it the trees for the forest :smile: whatever it is. The point is some people will make a cult out of anything - including bliss, no religion, New Age, my thinking, my cult, or spiritual teachings - it can't be helped because we live in the land and realm of ego, dualistic thinking, living and fundamentally ignorance. Jyotir has many, many excellent posts on this forum which detail the mechanics of this.

That is why there is nothing so beautiful and true that ego can't ruin and likewise there is nothing so mundane or ugly that Truth can't transcend. It's a two way street.

My point is, given a choice between having help from a a group or realized teacher or not, I would go with the former. I am biased by two things:
1. Having had this tremendous and unthinkable experience - believe me I'm a skeptic as much as the next person and I took a long time before accepting anyone as I was foremost suspicious and haha didn't trust many teachers
2. Recognizing that the Truth as taught by all genuine spiritual traditions are not inconsistent - and although it sounds easy - there are so many pitfalls (I get mired constantly hehe) - that the genuinely realized are genuinely miles ahead and have access to Knowledge that is superior, and also if they are real teachers, they know also how to help.

The biggest elephant in this room - the huge caveat is - can a person find a genuinely realized teacher? Can they find a tradition that genuinely aims to free them - kick them out of the nest so to speak, and not mire them within a tradition/belief system/religion?

That is what is up to karma and the fate of life, of which I am no expert. But seek and ye shall find, and above all, if you alone are the sole arbiter of truth (I know I am enlightened or have "got it" and I don't have to do a thing nor listen to anyone else) - you can be pretty sure you have a long long road to go.*

Blessings.

*you = one (not you)

the basic problem as I see it is we are ALL mired, just some of us are mired in places we like to go while others are mired in places we don't want at all.

my perception at a young age was that even the most accomplished 'masters' for lack of a better word are in this position it is simply that their position is admired whereas certain other positions aren't. So we name them something different than we name other things and then assume the names actually mean what we think they mean... But in fact it is the fact of this admiration of some positions and dislike of others, that keeps us mired.

So if you follow a teacher you are going to get mired in whatever mire they find themselves in... because over a long period you will sop up their teachings, mire and all. It is the same as with politics... if you join the game it is almost impossible to get anywhere long term without buying into the good ole boys network hook line and sinker and so nothing is going to change for you being there. But if you don't follow a teacher it is hard to see what to do, and the default is you are going to repeat all the common mistakes and not get anywhere that way either.

But people are in too much of a hurry. What we don't realize is that when you make mistakes, a lot, you eventually get the feel for yourself for what is a mistake and what is not. But if you prevent yourself from making mistakes, you also prevent yourself from learning the difference between one thing and another, and have to continue to rely on someone else to tell you what is what.

This 'business' is not a make it up as you go along type of trip. Neither is it a guess game - believe it or not, there is an end game, and furthermore that end game keeps growing but it's direction is consistent across all well known spiritual traditions. How's that for God's Grace.

The other inherent issue with your assumption is you think it is an ego trip or just a "self improvement" program, make enough mistakes and the personality wisens up. But no, it transcends the personality in essence, that is the rub. I don't believe it is just about self-improvement. Grace is much more than that, much more intense, much more heart driven and intensely personal. Also, if someone wants to trip over the same rock of course that's all fine (we do anyway) but to imagine that forgoing guruship or friendship or guidance or kindness or expertise (or whatever it is) because going alone is going to teach you more, I think, misunderstands what the teachings are fundamentally about.

But anyway your signature says it best: “To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.” ― Zhuangzi

BT

hey i wouldn't have chosen the path I'm stuck on if even one person had cared about me. Believe me I wanted no part of it. I jsut wanted a normal life like other people have. But I am an outcast, so I do what I have to to survive in an unkind world.

But that is fine if you want to be mean too... I seem to be collecting that today.

Thanks