Originally Posted by ThreeOfWhite

Why must debate be the only path?

Originally Posted by wstein

Why all the 'lists' in Buddhism (4 noble truths, 8-fold path, 4 immeasurables, etc)?

My current view is nothing is referral to Buddhism even the direct words from Siddharta himself ,because in Buddhism as my current view , we are all alone in the journey of our choice , our will in our world ...so the so call "list" as you mentioned to me is just an information , a knowledge same as what shown to you by Osama , or the nature of a pen on your table , is just a tiny part in Buddhism .Buddhism is all about own self , realization of own self and awaken to the journey .....


Isn't the spiritual path unique to each person? Is there some basis to suggest that this one size fits all formula based system is actually effective? Siddhartha didn't follow these to his enlightenment.

Originally Posted by revolver

Always ask questions CSEe, and don't except anything just because someone else told you so, your inquisitive mind will serve you well, I do like the way you think.

Originally Posted by Riboflavin

Talking with others about stuff is a good way to help you understand the subject mentally CSEe. Well it's been fruitful for me anyway. Well for a couple years I mean.

It's great.

Originally Posted by CSEe

Originally Posted by wstein

Is this to say that its impossible to 'practice' Buddhism as everything is already actually living it?

Dear sir , in my current view Buddhism is a natural process of all living or non-living back into original condition of nothingness , so for human it is a natural process that we will learn , discover , realize , accept all our emotions leading to freedom of it .......into emptiness back into nothingness . So to me , if we creates desire or emotion "to practice" something , that will be taking longer journey ...is all our choice ... if you are going to New York from Houston , you can take a direct flight or you could go to Australia , to Rusia , to China , to Malaysia and then to New York ...is all your choice .
So in my current view , if we have desire / creates emotion / have expectation of Buddhism , Buddhism will always be our knowledge and limited to our knowledge ...Buddhism will be always something we know and will be something we wish to know ......that will be human suffering and joy .

In my current view , Buddhism is beyond knowledge , is not something we know or something we seek to know or something we will know ......Buddhism is you realizing your emotions , your existence , the cause of your existence .......Buddhism Perhaps is not "impossible" or "possible" to practice Buddhism , the closer words perhaps is being awake ...



The Buddhist 'religion' as found in USA does not present this individual process at least to beginners for several years. Every talk I have been to, each temple I have visited, books I have read, videos I have watched, discussion with practicing Buddhists have all been about the 'lists' and meditation. While the meditations are obviously personal, the process and format for them is from formula. I will note another thread about yoga where people are arguing that without the physical positions, one can not practice yoga. While yoga is not Buddhism, it illustrates the mentality I have encountered and associate with Buddhists.

Follow up question: If its all just a personal process, what role does 'Buddhism' play?

Originally Posted by CSEe

In my current view , Buddhism is never , is not and will never be any form of religion .
Dear sir , just for your information , I was banned in more than 7 Buddhism website for my view ....

Originally Posted by CSEe

Perhaps your desire to "learn" Buddhism is your suffering ....and joy .......Buddhism is natural process that you will realize your emotion , not creates more emotion by having desire ...

Originally Posted by wstein

According to wikipedia, Buddhism is “nontheistic religion” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism). Though not totally authoritative, it tends to represent the popular view. In my experience, this is pretty much what I think most Buddhists would say. As such, I can see why they kicked you out.

Human always have choices and if one wishes to be what he want to be , stay on as what he is ..that is what he will be and I learned . Is never who is right or wrong , is just choices that we choose and regardless what is the choices , it is a great learning source for all........

I humbly submit that you are no longer Buddhist. You have gone beyond the practice and have reached direct experience which no longer needs be filtered by any philosophy, form, religion, or practice. In my view, this is what Siddhartha himself reached and what Buddhism tries to help people towards. At some point in development one no longer needs the technique, they have embodied the principles and can just be/act. I see no point in further antagonizing Buddhists or Buddhism. It’s not benefitting them or you. Let it go. After all Siddhartha was not Buddhist when he reached enlightenment. Time to follow your own path.


I find there is still value in interacting with other also on their own path. It stimulates one’s internal process and helps see things from alternate perspectives.

At one time I looked into many philosophies, religions, spiritual practices, the supernatural, etc. Mostly I was looking for things I may have missed in my own isolated development not to join any of them per se. This was not out of ‘desire’ to learn Buddhism. I long ago understood how attachment leads to suffering. I am not an emotional person and have dealt with ego and mind chatter. As such I think I speak from a reasonably clear view of my own motivations.

Originally Posted by Capacity

You have a belief that Buddhism is a journey back to nothingness. That doesn't count as a belief?

Originally Posted by CSEe

Originally Posted by Capacity

How is it not a belief?

Originally Posted by CSEe

Originally Posted by CSEe

That was never , is not a beliefs or faith just my current view ..........to me currently Buddhism is a process that constantly moving.............is always subject to change that is why I have desire to debate .............

Originally Posted by running

Cse
Your idea or the Buddhist idea of being emotionless is a religion in itself. From reading your posts what you have done in my opinion is create a religion out of it. Never met a master whom had no emotions.

On your defense being full of bliss makes emotions come and go like the wind. The real thing based on what I have seen is things don't stick. Trying or thinking being spiritual is not having emotions i would suspect would create conflict from denial.

Living care free is an easy way for emotions to not stick. Not taking things to seriously. Not being overly attached to things. And so on.

The bottom line is in the awakening of ones kundalini. Things happen naturally and unique to the individual from my experience. Emotions can poor through or not and you can't stuffer like you did before. Its impossible. And isn't that the whole point. To be happy! To not be chained down by suffering.

If one is happy one is not suffering. Everything about it being this way or that is a religion. It has to be because its based on an ideology. Again the whole point in it all is what? To be free from suffering. To be happy. Its quite an ego to think that it is based on any ideology. Buddhism is an egoic trap if the ideas of how it is to be are as important or more important than what the goal was initially meant to be. To be happy! To not be held down by suffering

Originally Posted by Capacity

That you can be emotionless or return to nothingness is your current view of what you believe. The condition you are in is to believe in this...so you can only learn or hear what you want to hear based on your condition. Basically you are closed minded and this is why debating has failed over and over for you.

Originally Posted by wstein

Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by debate. So far your answers seem to all boil down to 'it is a process to nothingness'. While that may be true, it's just a moving target which leaves little room for debate. There is not much to debate about your assertion that Buddhism is a process, and there is even less can be said about nothingness. So unless you say something specific about the process itself what is there to debate?

Originally Posted by CSEe

Originally Posted by running

What's the point in debating anything. From your religious perspective all things are the same. I could be in pain and that's equal to having a good time. If I explain how to go beyond suffering you explain how suffering doesn't matter. This is far worse than having a discussion with a hardcore Christian Fundamentalist. They can at least think outside of they're religion enough to have a conversation. I see no point in any further discussion. Its nothing personal. Just no point in it is all. You are entitled to what you wish to believe. As is everyone. Good luck!!

Originally Posted by CSEe

Originally Posted by CSEe

In my current view , all living -human , animal, plant , micro-orgsm etc or non-living - rock , leaf , metal , pen , books etc is all in a process towards becoming nothing......this process is never being plan or cause by any factor , is just a natural reflections.......in human culture / knowledge , part of this process known as decay , rust , dead , living , rotten etc .........this process of all becoming nothingness as before polluted is to me - Buddhism .

Originally Posted by CSEe

That is what I realized from two words said to be from Siddharta's - awake and emptiness .

I realized that " awake" is like travel with a map or GPS ........by being awake , we will understand / discover even realize our emotion , reason of our emotion and as I progress further perhaps even realize my existence and the cause of my existence ......I then realized that as I journey into realization of own self ..........emptiness is within me , is my nature ..........I realized that the one I hold on to ....which I claimed as " My" ..."My car , my family , my body , my life " is resulted from the emotion that I hold on to....and I realized that ME owns nothing.....nothing is belong to ME ...but currently I still very far from "emptiness" , still full of pollutants ..........but perhaps as I progress into this path , the "rubbish" ( emotions ) that I carry will be reduced

Originally Posted by wstein

Yeah, that teaching tradition seemed purposely to be a one way street. I rarely learn much when people ask me basic questions. However I still take the time to answer if the questioner seems sincere.


In currently cant find any possible reason for any person to teach because in my current understanding , Buddhism is impossible to be taught by anyone including Siddharta himself .......to me currently ,Buddhism is about self realization...is me realizing myself , so how could it be possible for me to measure my realization on myself .. more than your realization on yourself and give me a reason to teach you?...Is impossible for me to measure , or to compare or to know that ....Buddhism to me simple impossible to be taught ...but currently in our society , there are perhaps hundreds of thousand people claiming as " Buddhism Master/ teacher" ....they gives talk , teach , accept student even declare themselves as "teacher" of Buddhism .........I just hope to learn their reason that makes them have emotion to teach others but for years I cant find even one to debate .


Keep in mind that people can feel challenged even if you are not intending to affect them in any way. Simply causing them to focus on something they have internal doubt or conflict is often seen as a challenge even if you were only addressing your own issues.

I have not 'debated' with any Buddhists masters. I have noticed when interacting with leaders and masters from other Eastern traditions that most of those 'teachers'/masters are actually very angry below (and not very far) the surface. Questioning or challenging them brings this out very quickly. Not sure the cause, just noting it.

Originally Posted by wstein

saying the same thing again … and again … reiteration is not a debate or even a discussion. It’s starting to sound like that one way street I referred to in the previous post.

Perhaps when you live in a moment at one time ...you sometimes "forget" the past ........ I do talk on my realization on that particular of time but never creates any intention to defend what I have said before .......so sorry if it sound repeating , to me is not....it just my emotion on a particular time . To me being awake and live in the moment , we change every moment in life and not livin in multiple lifes ...each moment of life is " new" so it may sound repeating to you but to me ...that is my condition on that particular moment .

OK, moving on.
I don’t see any basis for being awake causing understanding. Being awake does bring clarity which can aid understanding. However, understanding is a separate thing and unnecessary to being awake.

I often find that I have acted in a most appropriate way only later to realize that I have done so. It’s an active version of ‘being’. Sometimes afterwards I come understand why, sometimes I don’t. To act from being awake is about being and expressing. I see no need for any understanding to occur in that process.

Thanks for sharing ...as in my case "awake" makes me realize that in all my action or re-action or intention should be my total "self" .....being awake to my condition on a particular moment . For example , if I badly need money and someone give me money , by normal re-action , I will take it ........but if I "awake" and focusing on my total emotions , exploring all my emotion ...perhaps I will come to a decision that will less cause regret to me ......is common human culture to act or re-act and regrets later .....by being awake , we do choose better choices and with such choices we do experience less suffering of regrets .......
Sometimes my family members do said things very-very hurting to me .....if I act on my anger / ego / pride ...perhaps it will cause World War III but being awaken to Buddhism , I managed to realize that they are just providing a lesson to me to discover my emotions , my anger , my pride , my ego and for that whatever they said it is a great learning lesson to me ....Buddhism is beyond what I know so if I make judgement base on what I have known ..that will cause confusion to me .....I am now still full of pollutants still have special emotions for my daughter , family etc ...I still learning


Personally, I express ‘awake and emptiness’ as ‘present and detached’. I’m not sure if that is any easier to grasp for the unawake or not. I do find the practices for being present and being detached easier to access for the yet to be awaken.

As to ‘me’, I assume you are referring to identity which many mistake to be themselves. One of the things that helps me clarify to others that there is no fixed boundary between me and not-me is to ask them where exactly they end and ‘other’ begins’.Within reason, the physical body stops at an easily recognizable point. Ones energy and electric field (aura) extends well beyond that. The effect of actions extends even further abroad and continues past your lifetime. Ones gravitational affect spreads till the end of the universe. So exactly where do you stop? Using the more tangible aspects of ‘self’ makes it much easier for the mind to get a grasp on the concepts. While the above only addresses the issue of identity being arbitrary, it often leads to the more important discovery that the very concept of me is only an arbitrary label.

Originally Posted by CSEe

judgement on them ......they always entitled to their path , they are always in their learning lesson to discover their emotion same as me ....no one is right or wrong , every one is discovering own emotion by own action / re-action

Originally Posted by CSEe

Thanks for sharing ...as in my case "awake" makes me realize that in all my action or re-action or intention should be my total "self" .....being awake to my condition on a particular moment . For example , if I badly need money and someone give me money , by normal re-action , I will take it ........but if I "awake" and focusing on my total emotions , exploring all my emotion ...perhaps I will come to a decision that will less cause regret to me .....

Originally Posted by CSEe

and myself is the emotions which I claimed to be mine

Originally Posted by wstein

There is still projection going on here.

Everyone is where they are. They might be learning, on their path, discovering, emoting. On the other hand they might not be. Both just are. There is no need to assign entitlement nor make any assumptions about what they are doing or not doing. They will wander through this lifetime however they wander through. Allow them not because they are entitled or because its their path. Allow them because it’s no concern of yours. Their stuff is not your stuff, it’s not about you.

Yes , is easy for me to agree with you on this , but perhaps by realizing that they are just like us , learning , exploring their emotion perhaps we awaken and progress further into seeing no differences .......realizing that there is no others except our self that "others" existence is just a source for us for our own self discovery .......and we are all same and equal in own journey ......so we do not need to allow them or ignore them
.......all action or re-action by anyone or anything is never related to us but provide a great source for us to learn........


I don’t help people with their spiritual quests because I want to help them. I do it because it allows me to express my nature (who I am as a being). I act when it is in alignment with who I am. I don’t do it out some misguided presumption that I can do any of their work for them. Turns out that I do help some from time to time but that is not the motivation.

Originally Posted by wstein

If one is awake they will take the money that they need when it is offered. There is no need for any reflection, any emotion, any focusing, any regret reduction, any realizing, any awareness. It will just spontaneously happen. It will be just as natural and uneventful as lifting your foot in order to start walking.I hear that realizing and emotion are happening for you. I’m just saying that they don’t need to happen and that they won’t always happen.


In my current view , my life is full of confusion perhaps due to human culture / human knowledge ...we do things as what we think is right and avoid what is generally accepted as wrong .........yes that is human culture ...but awaken to Buddhism , I realized what is knowledge . Knowledge is something we know , something told to us by parent , school , education , friends , society , sciences , by our own experiences etc ...but Buddhism is beyond that knowledge , knowledge is just a tiny little part of Buddhism .......so by culture / knowledge even by custom , I will took the money ...but awaken to Buddhism , I will explore all my emotion , my desire , my fear , my greed , my ego , my love etc which is all the same source and from there decision will be made .........this will avoids any suffering of regrets ...

Perhaps a story will help here??
I was walking along the sidewalk in Riverside California talking to a friend who was walking beside me. We were coming to a driveway entrance to a small strip mall. I looked left on to the street to see if any traffic would be coming when we got to the drive. Then I notice that I have bent down and my hand is about to grab a $5 bill laying in the gutter. I smiled and watched my hand up pick the $5 bill. I had no awareness of seeing the $5 before I was about to pick it up. I had no recollection of thinking I should pick that up. I had no emotion about finding such a prize. The aware me was solely focused on walking, traffic, and the conversation. There was a brief interruption as I showed my friend the $5 bill as she was wondering what I was doing suddenly bent over. I put it in my wallet and returned to my activity. It would have been entirely possible to have collected the $5 which I would like to have had and put it in my wallet without even being consciously aware of it. The consciously aware part of us is but a tiny fraction of who we are even as a being. Part of being awake is allowing those other parts to participate in the life experience, they are aware too in their own way; and to allow them to do so without ‘checking in’ first.

Originally Posted by wstein

The emotions are not you. ‘You’ are the one doing the claiming. You may allow the emotions to affect you or they may be from you. It’s the same with your body, you are not your body. ‘You’ are that which experiences through the body. Emotions, bodies, thoughts, etc. are but tools you may utilize to make up your experience. You are not that experience either, it’s another tool. One easy way to identify tools is that anything you can have/claim is not you.

Originally Posted by CSEe

Originally Posted by running

Enjoying feeling well is a judgement. For example if I smashed your hand with a hammer it would be painful. I agree with you on those things being a judgement.

I'm fairly certain anyone including you would rather not have your hand smashed. From what I can tell all humans you and I would rather not have a hand smashed. Or be in any other major painful experience. Everything from what I have seen seeks pleasure over pain.

Show me someone whom isn't bothered by any amount of pain ever. Meaning before, during, and after the incident Then I will say what your describing is not a religion. Until then its at best philosophy.

I can't say I don't enjoy reading your thoughts. Like I said earlier we are all entitled to believe whatever. Although there may be no point. Its fun an ways. So yeah I will keep posting.

Originally Posted by CSEe