Can you do Pagan Rituals and not be Pagan ?
 

Hi I know this my sound funny but I like some of the rituals Pagans do but Im a die- hard christian. But reading this book made me think of all the rituals pagans do and it seem pretty intresting ,nice and down right fun. I would kinda want that in my life but not hurt my faith. I hope I dont offend anybody hear I respect this religion. I was also wondering what kinds of seramonies and rituals are out there I kinda know about the halloween one / Samhain. That intrests me alot thanks !!

Just as someone can be a die hard Pagan and practice Christian rituals.

But just where does that leave one at the end of the day ?

You can. But I fail to see the point, since it goes against much of the Bible. There's lots of Christian folk traditions that might interest you, rather than pagan ones, which tend to be... non-Christian? lol

A good example is the Carmina Gadelica which is a collection of hymns, blessings and poems collected from the Scottish Highlands, which are Christian in their purpose and reference, but show some strong folk tradition that many see as being originally pagan, but living on in modified form.

Of course there are lots of pagan rituals you could do.
For example : Ostara. Your church must like that one since they took it for themselves and renamed it Easter. Or how about Yule ?

Actually, Easter is a purely Christian holiday. The actual name in English we use, Easter, is related to an Anglo-Saxon month name mentioned by Bede that corresponds to the modern month of April. Bede also mentioned that the Anglo-Saxons worshiped a goddess by the name of Eostre around that time, and Jacob Grimm was one of the first people to theorize that the custom of dyeing Easter eggs, and the Easter Bunny are possible remnants of a Eostre cultus that were kept by the converted A-S.

But aside from the English & German customs that aren't in anyway Biblical, Easter, or Pascha, is definitely a Christian holiday.

Thanks Guys !! <3 <3

Caring and nurturing for anything that grows,,be it a child, a ralationship , a green plant is very much paganism as ritual and the way of life and living are intricately interwoven for bog standard pagans like me.

If you like gardening. Enjoy raising your family.Appreciate the wisdom of the Elders in your family . respect your dead..even erect stone monuements(gravestones) to them..Enjoy cooking..Like Handicrafts.Enjoy meditation and music . Like birdsong..Adore the sound of running water , love trees grass and plants. Like to see winter. Spring, Summer , Autumn.. Celebrate Easter Ostara,,Christmas. Yule.. You are most probably a closet Pagan anyway. And may not even be aware of it.

Closet Pagan. I like that! I live the Pagan lifestyle daily, but never put two and two together until recently. I never formally studied Paganism. I have a past life in a Celtic Druidic clan. Your list describes me.

Easter actually has been traced as far back as Babylonia(Mesopotamia). Traditions and all. The early Christians "borrowed" the Pagan holidays and "mutated" them to fit their theology so the populations would submit more easily.

And what kind of evidence can you cite to support that? I've heard it a few times; but I've never really heard anything that validates it as much as people insinuate it does.

Read the instructions of Pope Gregory to Saint Augustine when he was sent on a mission to convert the Pagan English.

If one has a brain, can read and keeps an open mind, then one learns.

What? To prove that Easter has origins in Babylonia? :confused:

Sure. But not everything you read is factual. Part of gaining knowledge is learning that not all opinions and ideas are equal.

So again, what evidence do you have?

First off, I do not believe everything I read is true. I read many things offering many sides, many ideas. When these start to overlap and I see the same thing over and over, I form an opinion. I also form my opinion based on life experience and observation - which I have considerably more life experience than you do.

You seem to be basing your belief off of the Venerable Bede's writings. He was a CHRISTIAN monk. So how unbiased do you think that is? The word pashca means and never changes - passover. The early christians celebrated passover - not Easter. If you believe what is written in the bible as true fact, then we really have nothing to talk about. If you pay attention to what you are reading, you will see the similarites between all of the ancient festivals and rites and modern religious ones.

There are many, many pages of works on the internet - here are 3:
rcg.org/books/ttooe.html
goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm
cbcg.org/should_christians_celebrate_easter.htm

We all have different belief systems and no one of them is right or wrong.

Yeah, but not all opinions are valid. Forgive me if I cannot accept your assertions on the fact that you have "more life experience". I've met many people with "more life experience" who have no clue about what they're talking about (not saying you don't though :wink: ).

I am not basing my belief (it's not my belief, lol) solely upon Bede. I am merely pointing out the obvious fact that the Hellenized Hebrew term Pascha - Passover is not used in Germanic languages like English. In Italic languages you have terms related to the Latin Pascalis - which surprise, is a loanword from Greek - used for "Easter".

And of course there are similarities, religions don't develop in a vacuum. I never denied that. I am simply saying that the idea Easter = pagan = not really Christian is a faulty idea, because people who speak Italic languages still use the word related to Passover. The whole idea that eggs and rabbits are somehow a part of Easter's religious significance is overlooking the fact that anywhere else in the world outside of the USA and Western Europe and countries with lots of population or influence from those countries don't have easter bunnies or egg dyeing. Those are folk traditions, not religious ones. Which is why you don't go to Easter service and hear the priest or reverend say "and yea, the Easter Bunny will save you from your sins and save your colored eggs from the fires of hell".

But you're missing the fact that the whole death and resurrection thing has as it's basis, the Babylonian version. Tummuz(?), the son of the goddess died and was resurrected. The whole thing is so eerily similar to the christian version of the Easter story. The other traditions - the fertility rites, eggs, the whole bit. And I'm sure that all of these ideas had their start with the earliest humans as a way to explain the world around them.

Actually, much of the early Christian writings come from Eadfrith, the Bishop of Lindisfarne rather than Bede [The Ecclesiastical History of the English Speaking People]. Now this is where it gets interesting in the light of the OP. Lindisfarne was founded by monks of the Gaelic Church, not the Roman Church. Wind back earlier to the "eradication" of the Druids in Anglesey by the Romans - many Druids escaped by sea and went to Ireland via the Isle of Man. These druids were subsumed by the Gaelic Church and introduced "paganish" rituals into the church - animism for example and Druid [pagan] festival days. After the Synod of Whitby, Roman Easter was established and the Gaelic church faded from view in England.

Just to end with a real twist, it emerged again in the 20th century. Both Gerald Gardner [founder of wicca] and Ross Nichol [founder of the largest group of British neo-Druids] were ordained priests of an obscure branch of the Gaelic church. What goes around etc :D

But can you actually link Tammuz with the resurrection of Jesus? All of that hinges on the idea that the early Christians somehow adopted the mourning of Tammuz and changed it to Jesus.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that themes of resurrection did influence many Mediterranean customs (like the sleeping or death of Dionysos in Orphic mystery cults). But even then, it doesn't invalidate the idea that Easter or Paschal is a Christian holiday remarkably free from non-christian influences outside of folk traditions.

What's the name of the Gaelic church?

Do you put a Tree in your house for the Holidays? You just did a pagan ritual.
Do you or have you ever dyed an egg in spring? You just did a Pagan ritual.
Have you ever danced around a Maypole? You did a pagan ritual.
Have you dressed up on Oct 31st? You just did a Pagan ritual.
Have you ever asked a Diety can be God or Jesus even for something?
You have done a pagan ritual. Prayer means praise and worship not asking for things.
Do you have any wreaths in your house or flowers on your wall? Thats pagan.
Some Christians would never admit to it but they do more Pagan rituals then Christian, Without even being aware of it.

:rolleyes: pagans misrepresenting pagans and christians.
When will it end?

Origins of the name "Easter":
The name "Easter" originated with the names of an ancient Goddess and God. The Venerable Bede, (672-735 CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted in his book De Ratione Temporum that Easter was named after Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). She was the Great Mother Goddess of the Saxon people in Northern Europe. Similarly, the "Teutonic dawn goddess of fertility [was] known variously as Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron and Ausos." 1 Her name was derived from the ancient word for spring: "eastre." Similar Goddesses were known by other names in ancient cultures around the Mediterranean, and were celebrated in the springtime. Some were:

Aphrodite from ancient Cyprus
Ashtoreth from ancient Israel
Astarte from ancient Greece
Demeter from Mycenae
Hathor from ancient Egypt
Ishtar from Assyria
Kali, from India
Ostara a Norse Goddess of fertility.

An alternative explanation has been suggested. The name given by the Frankish church to Jesus' resurrection festival included the Latin word "alba" which means "white." (This was a reference to the white robes that were worn during the festival.) "Alba" also has a second meaning: "sunrise." When the name of the festival was translated into German, the "sunrise" meaning was selected in error. This became "ostern" in German. Ostern has been proposed as the origin of the word "Easter".
Sunday." It is derived from the name of the Scandinavian sun Goddess Sunna (a.k.a. Sunne, Frau Sonne).
Yeah thats about as Christian as decorating a Tree..

I am not misrepresenting what I am or the laws of the Bible.

Jeremiah 10:2-4

King James Version (KJV)


2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

You lost me when you called Eostre a "Great Mother Goddess".

We know nothing about her. She is only mentioned by Bede, and even then we don't know whether he invented her. Jacob Grimm used linguistics to reconstruct a proto-Germanic form of her name (*Ostara), and linked her with Aurora of Roman religion and the Norse Aurvandil name/word being a cognate, and theorized that she was a goddess of the dawn and springtime. But those are speculations. We've never discovered a cult center of Eostre or have any surviving placenames dedicated to her, so the range of evidence is relegated to linguistics, comparative mythology, and the sole reference made by Bede.

Well, I'd beg to differ. You're making it out like dancing about and throwing some flowers around somehow makes a person pagan, or that they've done some kind of pagan rite (whatever that is). It doesn't.

I, for one don't even think Jesus was one person - I think he was a conglomeration of many young people of the time who rebelled against their religious teachings and leaders. So, we probably will never come to any compromise as to the basis of Easter or any religious traditions.

There is no actual, real, absolute link. For pete's sake! The "linking" occurred over thousands of years as populations spread throughout the world -morphed, if you will. The idea may have started out as the Babylonian story or even earlier, and then another culture took it over and another and another. It eventually reaches the west where those cultures change it to fit their ideologies. There is nothing new or original under the sun.

I will have to dig for that. It is in Gardner's biography - get back to you :smile:

You can beg all you want dear. Fact is you need to study more and have references to back up some claims and know that just cause you practice something of Pagan background doesn't make you Pagan. Many Christian holidays were created and based off of paganism. Also I am not making nothing out like that if you are confused re read my posts Norse will tell you honestly I am speaking from experience and also Paganism paints a very wide brush. But if a Christian wants to practice some of our rituals I am trying to point out that they already do. Doesn't make them Pagan and I don't see a problem with it. Also you really need to study more about Easter and Christmas and the pagan roots of those Holidays.
When you peel away everything it has nothing to do with Christ.If you like and I hate to reference anything from the Internet or origins but this article may help you a little http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html
If you have any other questions on Easter or holidays if I am not on I am sure Norse can answer. Thanks.

:rolleyes:

That link is something marvelously special. I don't think I have ever read so many inaccuracies in a single piece of writing. If you're using that for your information about pagan customs & Easter, I'd advise you to simply stop talking about it completely.

Seriously? I mean, really?

I really think you are confused maybe?
I am not picking a fight I am simply giving you information on Paganism.
Telling me to go away will not help you to understand how this is plain fact.
I have studied Theology and Occult practices for over 20 yrs. Again if you scroll up and really read what I said instead and stop being defensive you will see me say "even though I don't like web information I will link this.
So you have a better understanding. I am positive you are a bright funny intelligent person everyone cannot know everything. This forum was built to educate people and help people grow. Not to tell people to stop talking.
I admire your opinions on things I admire everyone's opinions.
If you dont like mine feel free to prove me wrong.

Rewinding to the original question
"Can you do Pagan Rituals and not be Pagan ?"

Pagan is a word like "dog" - a generic word. Just as there are zillions of breeds of dog, likewise with pagan.
Consider history. America was founded by fundamental christians and never had a pagan heritage [yes, I know - what about the native Americans ? Their spirituality was under attack from day one]
Europe in general has a long pagan heritage but,again, you cannot address Europe generically. Southern Europe fell under the influence of Rome early on, while Northern Europe remained pagan for many centuries.
Britain is the peculiarity. As I indicated previously, Britain was influenced by what I call the pagan christianity of the Celtic Church and early conversions were only apparent in the ruling elite, the masses [being Celts] remained pagan. Two influxes from Northern Europe [ Saxon and Norse ] strengthened the root paganism which exists right up to current day. It can be argued that Britain has never been christian and has always had a pagan heart. Proof ? - look to church attendances, currently about 6% and still falling with the General Synod of the Anglican Church predicting the demise of the Anglican Church as an organisation in less than 20 years.
So, I would like to reverse the original question to read "Can you be Christian without being pagan ?"

What you posted is not information on paganism. It's a Christian polemic against perceived pagan practices present in many modern sects, and uses pseudo-scholarship in an attempt to validate their bias.
You're right. I came off as a little invective. I apologize. :smile:

But you, see, what you linked is easily disproved by basic knowledge of linguistics and Akkadian mythology. They mention Ba'al; which Ba'al? It was an epithet for lots of gods, and even used in a secular capacity and simply meant 'lord'. They assert that Ishtar was pronounced "easter"; sources? They cite nothing to support their views, and some people are gullible enough to take them on good faith. It's that kind of attitude that's set back the modern neo-pagan movement because so many cling to the idea of great mother goddesses, matriarchal societies, underground witch-cults, and other shoddy scholarship as being historically correct & it only severs us further from our ancestral beliefs. Making a fantasy world isn't going to help us recover and revive pagan customs and traditions.

Here is an interesting picture...It may have some bearing on the subject matter that this thread appears to have adopted...or not,

http://www.lastrefuge.co.uk/images-d...ton-henge1.jpg

Though for me personally it illustrates very well how for the purposes of converting Pagans , without too much upheaval and disruption to pre existing ways the early Christians went about revising the old way.

The Picture is of Knowlton Henge incidentally.

Neville, that one photo sums up the subject perfectly. :smile:

At least once a month I do a meditation in what is regarded as the finest Norman Cathedral in Europe solely because there is an ancient pagan holy place in the foundations, part of the Bronze/Iron Age hill fort [later a Roman Army camp ]
Also, we might like to consider the very old churches in Britain, mostly Saxon, which have carvings of pagan gods in their structure.
As I said earlier, in Britain, pagan and christian are closely interwoven.

Animus27 everyone is intitled to the own opinion. Like Norse pointed out the word Paganism has a broad spectrum. I admire your passion and you knowledge on the subject matter. I never posted any Christian Views I simply dont have any I was not raised Christian nor is anyone in my family Christian. I respect there views and ethics just like everyone else that simply is not mine though. I respect your views although they are not mine.
You seem to have a knee jerk reaction and seem to be comparing Christianity and Paganism. I do not compare those I was simply saying that Christians do alot of Pagan rituals that they are not even aware of. The resurrection of Jesus Christ simply can be celebrated anyway those people feel but dying eggs and waiting on the Easter bunny is no way guided towards the resurrection. It is and will ever be a Pagan practise I am sorry this confuses you.

I never denied the fact that the Easter bunny, dyeing eggs and gifting baskets and eat peeps weren't Christian in origin. But the problem is that we don't know whether dyeing eggs and telling kids about the Easter bunny are even present in pre-Christian Europe. The Easter bunny itself isn't even really known until the 19th century. Simply stating that "they're pagan" doesn't help broaden understanding.

uh... Did you even pay attention to the site you linked with all of the "information on paganism"?

Please read the URL before you click, and take notice that this is clearly not a scholarly resource and wouldn't likely know a hymn to Ishtar if it bit them in the face: http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/

Greetings Endless_Love_2_You:
 

I find this post to be very sweet.

I began practicing PaganRituals as a Christian--who never found her niche.:wink:

My Rituals had heavy Christian overtones and (at first) did not even recognize the Mother.

Over-time--my practiced progressed and (after 4 years) I dedicated myself to the Goddess.

Start with Ann Moura's "GreenWitchcraft" vol. 1--it will outline the Wheel-of-the-Year for you and many other things. She is all-inclusive and you can use the the Holy Masculine Trinity--if that is what your prefer.

Peace and Love on your path to discovering the Mysteries...

Blessed be...

Ostara, Goddess of Spring and the Dawn (Oestre / Eastre)

Easter is named for a Saxon goddess who was known by the names of Oestre or Eastre, and in Germany by the name of Ostara. She is a goddess of the dawn and the spring, and her name derives from words for dawn, the shining light arising from the east. Our words for the "female hormone" estrogen derives from her name.

Ostara was, of course, a fertility goddess. Bringing in the end of winter, with the days brighter and growing longer after the vernal equinox, Ostara had a passion for new life. Her presence was felt in the flowering of plants and the birth of babies, both animal and human. The rabbit (well known for its propensity for rapid reproduction) was her sacred animal.

Easter eggs and the Easter Bunny both featured in the spring festivals of Ostara, which were initially held during the feasts of the goddess Ishtar | Inanna. Eggs are an obvious symbol of fertility, and the newborn chicks an adorable representation of new growth. Brightly colored eggs, chicks, and bunnies were all used at festival time to express appreciation for Ostara's gift of abundance. The history of Easter Eggs as a symbol of new life should come as no surprise. The notion that the Earth itself was hatched from an egg was once widespread and appears in creation stories ranging from Asian to Ireland.

Eggs, in ancient times in Northern Europe, were a potent symbol of fertility and often used in rituals to guarantee a woman's ability to bear children. To this day rural "grannywomen" (lay midwives/healers in the Appalachian mountains) still use eggs to predict, with uncanny accuracy, the sex of an unborn child by watching the rotation of an egg as it is suspended by a string over the abdomen of a pregnant woman.
Eggs.
Dyed eggs are given as gifts in many cultures. Decorated eggs bring with them a wish for the prosperity of the abundance during the coming year.
Easter Candy
Folklore suggests that Easter egg hunts arose in Europe during "the Burning Times", when the rise of Christianity led to the shunning (and persecution) of the followers of the "Old Religion". Instead of giving the eggs as gifts the adults made a game of hiding them, gathering the children together and encouraging them to find the eggs. Some believe that the authorities seeking to find the "heathens" would follow or bribe the children to reveal where they found the eggs so that the property owner could be brought to justice.

Easter is 100% Pagan I dont know what more you want? Or we you seem tense against me.

Did you read any of my post? Any at all?

Eggs and the easter bunny have nothing to do with the actual holiday of Easter. If you go to an Ethiopian church, or ask a christian in Spain, or Israel what an Easter egg is, you'd get a resounding "Huh?" unless the person is familiar with folk traditions of Americans and parts of Northern Europe.

Then there's the issue that all of your claims are only half truths at best. Like I mentioned before, we know nothing of Eostre besides what Bede said, and even then, we cannot be 100% sure if he invented her, excluding discoveries that support a cult of Eostre in pre-conversion A-S England.
"Ostara" is a reconstructed name. There's no actual attributes assigned to her historically, because the name is invented by linguists. It's totally fine if you see her as a goddess of springtime, the dawn and fertility, lots of neo-pagans do, and even I am personally inclined to, much of the time. But it's not historical. You cannot cite Germanic goddesses as the origin of Easter when Easter was already a set holiday by the time the Church began converting the Germanic peoples.

You can believe in whatever you want. People do it all the time. But you can't deny simple facts about the way Paschal (Easter) originated. Regardless of some perceived "pagan" influences in the christian church.